Guest The_0ld_Man Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 I am confused somewhat. I have just finished watching this episode again and decided to do a little investigating. Sammael, is known to be the "poisoner" and or the Hebrew name for the chief of Satan's angels. If this is so, who is this Samael that stopped Alistair Pepper's evil? There is also reference to perhaps the name os Samael being attributed to the angel of death...anyone have a position on this? Regards, The_0ld_Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bardo Thodol Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Here some more information about Sammael. In Apocryphal creation texts, Sammael is the Demiurge, the creator-God that creates the universe, and mistakenly thinks he is the only god that exists, becoming delusional. He is later chastized my his Mother God (who gave birth to Sammael without sexual union with the Father God - which made Sammael, by definition, out of balance with the universe, cosmos, etc), for his arrogance. In certain Apocryphal texts, it is the Serpent who is the embodiment of Wisdom and friend of humanity.... makes you think of a certain Serpent chasing it's tail, eh? And it is the Demiurge/Sammael that is the one that imprison spirit/energies/souls in the physical world of his creation. In essense, according to certain Apocrypal texts, the Creator-God/Sammael is the evil that condemns spirits/souls to entrapment in this world for his own pleasure and machinations, and it is the Serpent who is trying to awaken humanity to the reality and free them from ignorance of their situation through Knowlege (ie, the tree of Knowledge). (Sort of like Morphius in the Matrix, trying to awaken and help people to free their minds from the false reality of the Matrix...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest metlakatla Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 I haven't seen any episodes in about three years (but yes the order is in) so this off my memory (I apologize in advance) and without the benefits of end credits (read probably worthless). The character may make more sense if interpreted as Salamiel (credits?). In certain usage Salamiel and Samuel are interchanged and aurally aren't too far from Samael. If the character is taken as Salamiel "the acquired of God" versus Samael "the venom of God" certain elements of the character make more sense (apart from the actual striking down of Crowley where Samael's angel of death works--but then again why not Uriel "the fire of God"?). From the story of Enoch on the fallen Grigori; "why did ye forsake the high,holy,and eternal heavens, to pollute yourselves with the daughters of men,taking wives unto yourselves, doing like the races of the earth and begetting giant sons? Giants begotten by flesh and spirits will be called evil spirits on earth, and on earth will be their dwelling-place. Evil spirits proceed from their bodies, because they are created from above, and from holy watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they will be evil spirits on earth and evil spirits they will be named... And now as to the watchers who have sent thee to intercede for them, who had been aforetime in heaven, say to them: You have been in heaven, and though the hidden things had not yet been revealed to you, you know worthless mysteries, and in the hardness of your hearts you have recounted these to the women, and through these mysteries women and men work much evil on earth. Say to them therefore: You have no peace!... On his (Enoch's) question who they were, the angels leading him answered, 'These are the Grigori, who with their prince Salamiel rejected the holy Lord'. Enoch then said to the Grigori:'Why wait ye bretheren, and serve ye not before the face of the Lord, and why perform ye not your duties before the face of the Lord and anger not your Lord to the end?' The Grigori listened to the rebuke, and when the trumpets resounded together with a loud call, they also began to sing with one voice, and their voices went forth before the Lord with sadness and tenderness". The whole world weary nature of the character and his ambiguity in "the struggle" while talking with Frank ("It hurts me to be here") suggests to me more the sadness of being apart from God in the Grigori Salamiel (whose categorical Office is Earth) than the "even the wicked Samael, the greatest of them" who is only cowed by the Metatron and the Almighty. Or maybe I just have this irrational image of the Angel of Death as not looking like he just fell off a skateboard. A quick check of the credits will probably reveal the angel as Samael and the proceeding as just a latenight typing exercise, but anyways just my $1.04 ZIM or whatever it happens to be at the moment. grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elders (Admins) The Old Man Posted September 24, 2003 Elders (Admins) Share Posted September 24, 2003 Just to confirm this is a totally different person from me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wehavethefacts Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Has anyone read Robert Jordan's "The Wheel of Time" series? There's a character in that named Sammael who more or less exactly follows the profile of SP's explanation above - self-appointed head of "The Forsaken", minions of The Dark One, and when he steps out of line he is destroyed by his master for his betrayal. So there's Sammael lore all over the place. I haven't got as far as re-watching PPT&D again yet, but I'm intrigued now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The_0ld_Man Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 All, Thank you for the posts...but still I am wondering about who this Samael is...what incarnation he is. It would seem later on in "Borrowed Time" he is actually perhaps the angel of death, "drowning victims to set the balance so to speak"...If you take the tac of this Samael being the "Dark One" and the progenitor of the Nephilim (who were evil giants and a scurge on humanity...Ostensibly Goliath being one) Why then did he kill Alistair Pepper? Is there a war in hell much as the one in heaven that culminated in the casting out? This all could be ephemera in that Samael, just could be a common name in the arcaena in heaven...but, it still perplexes.... In addition to all of this, Sameal calls on the powers thrones principalities as well as "Raphael? or Rathiel" and "Uriel" for pepper to "Stand and be bound" I assumed at first this to be a call to the powers of these angels..but now, I am considering that there is some coda that he is calling upon..much like the oft use "parlay" of pirate fame. Since all the angels had different levels, but overall powers were equal with one another. In either case, he is an angel...but which arcaena? PS... Regards to the original old man...I did not intend to "steal" your name.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wehavethefacts Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 The way I see it, yes there is a war in hell. This is all sounding remarkably like Robert Jordan has pinched his storylines and characters directly from biblical lore and adapted the names slightly. All the characters in the books I mention are striving for power, as that is what evil desires above all else, which I guess makes sense in an MM context too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elders (Admins) The Old Man Posted September 24, 2003 Elders (Admins) Share Posted September 24, 2003 Regards to the original old man...I did not intend to "steal" your name.. Hi, Actually the name and various incarnations of it are reserved so I was amazed to see you had come up with a version that got through! It should be no problem. Regards, Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Wolf Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Just to confirm this is a totally different person from me! THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE With respect to our new "Old Man". I just couldn't resist the "Highlander" refference! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest se7en Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE With respect to our new "Old Man". I just couldn't resist the "Highlander" refference! .......make sure Methos doesn't find out!........i don't think Fitz would care either way as long as he gets laid! ~"Duende", se7en Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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