Catherine & Frank

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

Basically, although it's worth noting that CC didn't appoint M&W directly. He was aware of their interest, but it was FOX who made the deal and then let CC know, after which he was very happy.

As you say, M&W still had to answer to the network just like every other TV show, but they were definitely not calling CC up every few weeks to ask if what they had planned was okay.

As for the departure of M&W, that was a certainty from the very beginning of the season. They knew they were leaving after S2, so there was no dismissal and no asking to come back.

Yeah, I lost a huge huge post to, I think, L@the_of_Heaven, and I think his has gone too. Unless I'm getting mixed up with a different thread...

Thanks for the additional information. Regarding the missing posts, I have seen a few that were gone reappear, and a few that were posted disappear, and so on, so it might be a case where they are all there somewhere and will be restored. If not, I will just have to start a new thread about the genius of Morgan and Wong and season 2.

[Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___]

Thanks for the additional information. Regarding the missing posts, I have seen a few that were gone reappear, and a few that were posted disappear, and so on, so it might be a case where they are all there somewhere and will be restored. If not, I will just have to start a new thread about the genius of Morgan and Wong and season 2.

Yeah, I thought too that it was in this thread where we went on quite a bit about Season 2... DAMN, some of my most brilliant work... S T!!!

I think that THE GREAT ONE is getting us back for all our sins...

[Guest ZeusFaber]

Thanks for the additional information.

No problem. Happy to share whatever I can.

Regarding the missing posts, I have seen a few that were gone reappear, and a few that were posted disappear, and so on, so it might be a case where they are all there somewhere and will be restored. If not, I will just have to start a new thread about the genius of Morgan and Wong and season 2.

LOL. Like time and light, the old Millennium seasons and M&W debate will go on forever.

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

Yeah, I thought too that it was in this thread where we went on quite a bit about Season 2... DAMN, some of my most brilliant work... S T!!!

I think that THE GREAT ONE is getting us back for all our sins...

Yes, but we have sinned so many times that if this is the case, there is still so much more punishment to come. I don't however, think that the Old Man would tamper with posts praising season two. After all, we were introduced to the Old Man in season two, and he was killed off in season two, so if not for season two, there would be no Old Man.

[Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___]

Yes, but we have sinned so many times that if this is the case, there is still so much more punishment to come. I don't however, think that the Old Man would tamper with posts praising season two. After all, we were introduced to the Old Man in season two, and he was killed off in season two, so if not for season two, there would be no Old Man.

Hmmm, very good point there Mr. Blister@ss... Did I get Joe's new name right...?

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

Hmmm, very good point there Mr. Blister@ss... Did I get Joe's new name right...?

Yes, you got it perfect L@the of Hell. :grin:

[Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___]

Yes, you got it perfect L@the of Hell. :grin:

Somewhat different in tone than the original, but it has a nice ring to it...

[Guest Doll]

Frank did not have to kill the Poloraid Stalker but he did. He stabbed him to death and I think for Catherine it was too much. The way it was filmed, it was like he was trying to stab away all the problems he's had recently, and was very disturbing.

Further evidence that Catherine questions Frank's sanity would be her afraid that he might have hit Jordan, in Monster. She feels he's been isolating himself, turning away from his family looking towards the MLM Group for support. There's evidence of this in season one as well. Like when he doesn't tell Catherine about the doctor he goes to see in Walkabout before he goes there.

It definitely wasn't an attempt to rid himself of all the problems that have burdened him.

Catherine’s decision to split up b/c Frank killed her kidnapper, I felt was a bit off kilter. She’s a psychologist. Would it not have been apparent to her that he probably was temporarily insane @ the time? Someone in that state, who normally w/dn’t ever be that violent, wouldn’t have conscious access to the fact that what he was doing at that moment was wrong. Yelling isn’t something that could just snap Frank out of it.

Don’t get me wrong I like Catherine. To me, all of the circumstances insinuated that it was a moment of temporary insanity; in that case it was an instinctual primal drive for the survival of himself & his family. Frank had been receiving polaroids before he moved & they were of the two people he values most in the world, even his child. If the same stalker has escalated to kidnapping his wife, how long w/d it be until Jordan became the object of focus. She obviously is much more defenseless. The stalker probably doesn't have any behavioral boundaries, w/d he actually sexually assault a child given the chance? Would he stop after torture?

If you ever hear a friend or acquaintance speak of being t insane & he wants to talk about it, ask him (/ her) what was happening, could you hear what that person was yelling/saying to you, if you heard the words did they register/could you comprehend the meaning of what was trying to be conveyed, were you hearing his voice in a greatly diminished volume, could you even remember what started the argument in the first place, when those scenes popped into your mind was there any realization of good/bad or even what w/d happen afterward if he had acted on it (jail, fatal injuries, or otherwise)?

In this case, in this state of consciousness ~ there is no 'I do have to / I don't have to' ~ a comprehension of those thoughts isn't possible. While temporary insanity isn't limited to a particular ethnic group or IQ, the common thing is that there are people who will act on it & there are people who will somehow keep themselves from acting on it. Maybe they don't act on it b/c the other person involved doesn't get physically close or initiate contact. Perhaps it has to do w/the degrees of the experience & the different things that he has gone through w/ the person in question over many years.

I think how long they had been together, including before marriage, was brought up in the pilot & so presumably, if I remember correctly, they were two people that knew ea other very well. So how does Catherine process this event & arrive at the conclusion she came to? Because I thought it should’ve been all so obvious to one in her profession, I found myself taking it personally. What had been happening between them shouldn't have been considered in conjunction w/this instance.

I guarantee that if it had happened to me, I w/dn't be so quick to shove off. Frank should've gotten support, understanding, love, & almost anything else he wanted.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In Walkabout, my impression was that he wants to protect Jordan so much that he had begun to look for a way to fix the situation or @ least reduce the intensity of her experiences. If he decided to try a med & it worked for him, maybe it w/d be an option for Jordan in the future. As her father & protector he couldn't take the chance that Catherine w/d override his decision to do so.

[Guest NighTrekr]

I never completely bought Catherine and Frank's separation. I love season two and consider it the strongest of the three seasons, but M&W made too many drastic changes too quickly and that was one of them.

Catherine's been with Frank for a long time. She deals with "human evil" in her own job (see The Well-Worn Lock). She knows how the job affects him and she knows that the polaroids deeply disturb and anger him, reasonably so. And clearly the guy who was sending them was out to hurt Frank and Frank's family. So how was Frank in the wrong to kill the Polaroid Stalker? He kidnapped Frank's wife and at the time he thought his daughter was also there, hurt or dead or at the least drugged. Then PS attacked Frank. How could anyone, least of all his wife who was being held and terrorized by this lunatic, not understand why he killed the guy in the process of defending them? I might have been more worried about him had he not lost it in that situation.

...but they have a daughter to worry about and Frank's work seems to be drawing this sickness towards the family, and it drove him insane once and yet he keeps going back. Fine, I can see her frustration.

I guess one of my problems is that there was very little indication that Catherine had a major problem with his work in season one. In truth there was very little characterization period for Catherine in that season, save for a few great scenes in episodes like 522666 (also written my Morgan and Wong... hmm). If her unhappiness with his work had been a part of an overall arc spanning all of season one, I probably would have been fine with it.

Was anyone else irritated by the inconsistencies about who left who? In some episodes, Frank supposedly left the family, but after that opening episode it was clear he had no say in the matter.

Such a great show but so very uneven.

Edited May 26, 2007 by NighTrekr

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

I never completely bought Catherine and Frank's separation. I love season two and consider it the strongest of the three seasons, but M&W made too many drastic changes too quickly and that was one of them.

Catherine's been with Frank for a long time. She deals with "human evil" in her own job (see The Well-Worn Lock). She knows how the job affects him and she knows that the polaroids deeply disturb and anger him, reasonably so. And clearly the guy who was sending them was out to hurt Frank and Frank's family. So how was Frank in the wrong to kill the Polaroid Stalker? He kidnapped Frank's wife and at the time he thought his daughter was also there, hurt or dead or at the least drugged. Then PS attacked Frank. How could anyone, least of all his wife who was being held and terrorized by this lunatic, not understand why he killed the guy in the process of defending them? I might have been more worried about him had he not lost it in that situation.

...but they have a daughter to worry about and Frank's work seems to be drawing this sickness towards the family, and it drove him insane once and yet he keeps going back. Fine, I can see her frustration.

I guess one of my problems is that there was very little indication that Catherine had a major problem with his work in season one. In truth there was very little characterization period for Catherine in that season, save for a few great scenes in episodes like 522666 (also written my Morgan and Wong... hmm). If her unhappiness with his work had been a part of an overall arc spanning all of season one, I probably would have been fine with it.

Was anyone else irritated by the inconsistencies about who left who? In some episodes, Frank supposedly left the family, but after that opening episode it was clear he had no say in the matter.

Such a great show but so very uneven.

Excellent post, and I'll take up the debate. First off, with Catherine leaving, I don't think it came down to the fact that Frank killed the Polaroid Man. I know I have made these point before, but I will make them again for the sake of conversation, even at the risk of sounding repetitive. I think what happened is that, because they can only show so much on TV, we saw the PM killing in a different way than Catherine would have. The viewer sees a couple of thrusts with the knife, maybe a little fake blood, and thinks, "hey, the guy had it coming". The reality is that it is far more disturbing for someone to witness this kind of thing first hand, especially if it is a loved one committing the act. Also, you hear, for example, Crocell, in Curse of Frank Black say "whew, the way you gutted that guy", and you think of what a mess it would make to stab a person repeatedly in the intestinal area with a butcher knife, and for me, it makes sense that it would change your relationship with that person. At this point, Frank knew Jordan was OK and at home, it was Catherine who thought she was dead. I'm not saying that I would blame Frank for what he did, but Catherine doesn't seem to the be type that would condone violence for any reason, and Frank could have stopped at one thrust of the knife, or waited for backup and tried to apprehend the abductor, as opposed to butchering him. Also, keep in mind that, at one point Catherine says "Don't get me wrong, it's not like I'm not appreciative, but it changes things", or something to that effect. I think the reasons for them splitting up were not elaborated on that much, because the show was about evil, and serial killers and all that good stuff, and they didn't want to turn it into a soap opera about Frank and Catherine. A lot of the problems were spoken of briefly, and the viewer had to fill in the blanks. Catherine thought that Frank was shutting her out and putting his work before the family. We start to see this in episode one of season one, when Frank is at Jordan's bedside, and starts to get an idea about the case he is working on. He then looks at Catherine, as if to say "Can I", and Catherine say's "Go Frank", and he leaves Jordan's bedside to chase the bad guys.

As for the unevenness or inconsistency, I think this is bound to happen as so many different writers are trying to write individual episodes and, at the same time, try to work in Frank and Catherine's issues. In looking back at all of the shows where I have been a loyal viewer, I don't know that I have ever seen one that doesn't have some of these little problems. Even the X-files has recently been the topic of this type of discussion here. I also think we did see storms brewing with Catherine in season one, even if they didn't develop that side story as much as in season two. In season one, we often hear Catherine complaining about secrets and being shut out by Frank. We see this in episode one, when she complains to Frank about Peter Watts sitting alone outside waiting for Frank, instead of coming to the door and introducing himself. We see Catherine wondering what the heck happened to Frank in the episode "Walkabout", after an experiment that could have gotten him killed, and she finds that he is using a fake identity. She is further traumatized by Frank's work when she finds a human kidney in her refrigerator, sees a stranger standing in her home, and finds out that her, and Frank's, good friend Bob, has been killed in their basement. This would be enough to cause a strain in any marriage. I think all of these things, along with problems that the writers didn't have time to get into, led to the split up in a somewhat more gradual way than some percieve. I also think that the relationship between Frank and Catherine was used more as a tool to create the episode's plot than as a central part of the plot. They probably thought they could take some liberties in fitting things into the story and let the viewer fill in the blanks.