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OK, now I get the picture!  :wink_big:

Although it would be completely simplistic to think that these things are only a recent problem (in fact it must have been worse before churches and states fully separated), I would say that it is more on the implosion side. If even clergymen cannot abide by their own laws, those they chose and deliberately put upon themselves, there is little help for the entire church system. Unless they get a more radical leader who would start another kind of inward-turned "inquisition", they will find hard to restore the level of confidence they once had.

I think it is a pity, because if not anyone is cut out to be a soldier, it looks like it takes a good deal of personal qualities to make a spiritual guide. Now that they are almost totally harmless, they could even work efficiently to the evolution of society through their teaching. But that is another story I think will not be unveiled to our generation...


......indeed,i agree wellington,and have no doubt that because of man-made rules,and rampant corruption that the church has been a relative haven for pedophiles for centuries.-(my local priest bought me a ten-speed bike at the age of 14 when mine got ripped off in 1984. it cost $120 and my mother went with us when i got the bike. i did not even ask for it! i told him,about this bike being stolen, in confesssion because i was really upset and went everywhere with that bike. after he bought it he mentoned that he hoped i would come and visit him at the rectory as often as i could. i never did go back and visit him again-HELL,I HAD A NEW BIKE........FROM A MAN OF GOD!!!-9-years later when i was 23 in 1993,this priest,FATHER GEARY,was arrested for child rape of numerous boys/teens and possesion of child porn. sent a chill right to my very soul.)- i meant to infer that diocese records here in new england generaly go back about 130 years on the topic of abusive priests and the policies that they implemented to protect themselves and thier precious reputation(s).          

          .....i'd say implosion is more an adept word to use as well. only a very public brutal implosion as now critical church programs that actually do help millions of people are now underfunded and near the chopping block here because of the massive amount of people leaving the church and/or withholding thier weekly gifts of cash until major change/reform is made.

                                     ~se7en :Ouro_Large:

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be Seeing You,

David Blackwell

(who respects the beliefs of all as long as it does no harm to others or force their beliefs onto others)

.......i certainly subscribe to that notion. :thumbsup_big:

                                          ~se7en :ouro:

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BTW.....as i read "BANNER i could not help but feel incredibly sad for Emma smith,wife of joseph,who was devoted to her husband while he continualy cheated on her with other women and,for lack of a better term,girls. it tore her apart apparently. as well as infuriated her. and,boy what a coincidence,it was right around this time that smith was "assisted" in comming up with the plural-marriage tenent.


                                           ~se7en :ouro:

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Guest metlakatla

Hey Dave-

Actually I have some step-relatives who are active Mormons and after speaking to them, pre-book, I became fascinated (and disturbed) in the fairly large gaps in their accountings of their faith. I think the book does a good job showing how pervasive and insidious the movement is even when the majority of the followers are still asleep (personally though, in this case I thnk complicity and absence of disavowal aren't that far removed). Some things I knew,some things I didn't---all of it is definately eye opening in regards to the shifts towards ANY fundamentalism. I am also glad the book has reached such a large popular audience here in the States. It reminds me of one of the show stills with the text 'YOU CAN'T STOP IT' and underneath,faintly, the words 'you can stop it'. Under the constant bombardment of rhetoric, just a voice that says open your eyes and look. Excellent.



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Guest LauraKrycek

Laura, your Dad should publish.    I'm a true skeptic of any organized religion due to the power abuses in many religions by some in those religions throughout history.

We think he should publish, too.  Last year he spoke at the annual national Ex-Mormon convention in Salt Lake City, Utah (they scheduled it to coincide for the annual Mormon conference, which I thought was really funny) and he's been invited to speak again this year, but doesn't think he'll be able to because of travel time and expenses.  And just wait until you've heard things he's written -- it's really great.  I actually haven't read a whole lot of it because really, when you have to hear about it all the time, the last thing you want to do is go out of your way to read about it too.  :tongue:

I too have had problems with organized religion pretty much since we left the church, but rather than being a thing about people abusing power and being corrupted, it's more a matter of taking a mass of people who just want to come together with their similar belief systems and then forcing all of them to believe exactly the same thing, and if they don't conform... too bad for you!  Say hey to Hades for me.  It's just been this summer that I feel I'm finally coming to terms with the, really, betrayal that I felt upon discovering things about the Church, and I've been thinking about attending some various services around here and seeing if I like any of them enough to go on a regular basis.

Email me or post here about your experiences with the Mormons.  I want to hear more.

Due to the length that post is already going to be (I hate posting really long posts -- if it's too long to keep the attention of the writer, I don't expect all of you to read all of it  :tongue: ), I'll follow this up with another post.

On a lighter note, the Mormon church in my area makes me think someone needs to do a horror movie about a haunted Mormon church.

Oh my gosh, I am so ahead of you!  Have you ever been IN one of those buildings?  They're kind of elliptical-shaped, with the chapel\gym in the middle and classrooms all around the outer walls, with a big oval hallway in-between.  I used to always have nightmares when I was little that I was walking around inside the church, starting at the front, and as I got closer to the back it would get darker and darker, until finally I reached the other side and it had gotten dark and stormy outside (there were only 3 entrances to mine -- front, back, and right side -- so it was really dark in there, plus in the dream I walked to the left side), and I knew that something was hiding in the shadows to come and get me.

I also dreamed once that I was there with my mom and there was a doorway that I'd never noticed before in the back of the Relief Society classroom, so I went in.  In there was a very large (like giantesque, not like overweight) older woman, who had no eyes or mouth, but only a nose with a big wart on the tip, slightly to the left.  She talked to me for awhile, and then made me try to guess her name, and I finally noticed that my mom was in the main classroom.  The woman was scaring me, so I called for my mom, but she couldn't hear me -- the room was in some other weird dimension or something, so she didn't even see the door.  It was superfreaky.  I started freaking out, but the dream ended with me still in the room with the really scary lady who somehow talked to me even though she had no mouth, and knew I was there even though she had no eyes.  Still frightens me, but it must be ten or fifteen years since I dreamed that.

Anyway... yeah, apparently everyone else, like my mom, has also had nightmares about the church building.  Don't know why it's so scary, it just somehow is.

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Abuse of power and manipulation of the masses...

Laura, well done on your first-hand account of fear and betrayal.  Circling back around, it is a shame that most of our fellow citizens are quite mired in their own complacence.  

This is such a huge subject to tackle.  Laura, you mentioned a few weeks back how MM allowed you to focus and reconcile with religious uncertainties, strife, and direction.  I hope you can find a balance of faith and truth.  It is a sigh of relief to know at least your father and family has the strength to face and confront truth.

Whew...I am exasperated from reading the intensity...

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.......yes,this has certianly turned into quite the topic and i'm,as always,heartened by the amazing responses from all of you. organized religion,whether it be mormonism or something else is certainly a very complex,and timely,issue these days with no real easy answers or solutions.-(except maybe to open our eyes and try and learn as much as possible......at least that's a start. we simply cannot let any one organization/group to have complete and absolute power over masses of people. history has shown time and again that it simply does not work and is,in fact,harmfull and leads to horrific abuses of power more often than not. on the other hand...............................??)

                                 ~se7en :ouro:

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