You in the Millennium Group

[Raven Wolf]

LOL

No need for the Oopsie. I love this topic to be discussed again and again. Seems like new insights come to light every time.

Yes, and it is really too bad that the Trust was not included in season 3. It would have added to the tension of the season, and given Frank someone to secretly work with against the group. I have a feeling that if there was a 4th season, we would have seen the Trust come to light again. When I have time, I am going to start a thread where I spell out my speculation for what would have happened in season 4 and beyond (in terms of over all story-arcs), if the show had continued. The Trust definitely shows up in 4 in my speculations...

Ditto. I just really rather irritated me that it was like whoever was in charge of season 3 kind of seemed like they slept through season 2. They may have lost a lot of viewers by just going off in another direction, and leaving so much of season 2 dangling like the proverbial participle..... :hang:

[Guest Moriarty]

Ditto. I just really rather irritated me that it was like whoever was in charge of season 3 kind of seemed like they slept through season 2. They may have lost a lot of viewers by just going off in another direction, and leaving so much of season 2 dangling like the proverbial participle..... :hang:

That's true but you can say the same thing about the change in direction between season 1 and 2. M&W ignored season 1 also don't you think? They took it in a completely different direction. Right from the first episode. Killing off the polaroid stalker was their way to say: "There you go. Forget season 1, we will create something completely new". Season 3 was a return to what MM was supposed to be. However it never became as good as season 1. But hey, that's just my feeling about it.

Be seeing you!

[Bardo Thodol]

That's true but you can say the same thing about the change in direction between season 1 and 2. M&W ignored season 1 also don't you think? They took it in a completely different direction. Right from the first episode. Killing off the polaroid stalker was their way to say: "There you go. Forget season 1, we will create something completely new". Season 3 was a return to what MM was supposed to be. However it never became as good as season 1. But hey, that's just my feeling about it.

Be seeing you!

I have often thought that the Season 2 MillenniuM and the Seasons 1&3 MillenniuM were like 2 different shows, almost like some kind of alternate universe like Frank experienced with the Siren, only M&W forgot to write that into the script! LOL

Truly, though. Season 2 became a completely different premise premise. I kind of wish we could have had two different shows - one with the M&W mythology running through the entire series, and one with the original premise running through the entire series. That might be a cool idea for a virtual series, if someone is so inclined. Have an alternate virtual 1st and alternate virtual 3rd season (M&W style) build around the real 2nd season; and on the other hand have an an alternate virtual 2nd season (original premise style) built as a bridge between real 1st and 3rd seasons. Perhaps a project for future fan fiction writers.

I wouldn't want to loose either. I suppose that is why, most of the time, I just "go with it" in a sense, and suspend perceptions of incongruity. Or I just enjoy the sort of unintential clunkiness involved, all part of the underlying fun of Millennium fandom.

In the final analysis, I usually just enjoy MLM as it is, and go with the "somehowness" of the show. I still love it, and I have yet to see anything comparable to MLM.

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

Ditto. I just really rather irritated me that it was like whoever was in charge of season 3 kind of seemed like they slept through season 2. They may have lost a lot of viewers by just going off in another direction, and leaving so much of season 2 dangling like the proverbial participle..... :hang:

Yes, I agree, like I have said many times, I loved season three, probably even more than most people, but I think they did leave season 2 dangling a bit too much.

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

That's true but you can say the same thing about the change in direction between season 1 and 2. M&W ignored season 1 also don't you think? They took it in a completely different direction. Right from the first episode. Killing off the polaroid stalker was their way to say: "There you go. Forget season 1, we will create something completely new". Season 3 was a return to what MM was supposed to be. However it never became as good as season 1. But hey, that's just my feeling about it.

Be seeing you!

I never really had that much of a feeling like they left anything hanging from season one. True, the Owl/Rooster thing was totally new, but I don't think it consumed season two, as we had many stand along episodes that didn't really have much to do with the group itself. If anything, the ending of S1, Paper Dove, with Catherine being kidnaped, set up the first episode of season two. It's hard to say if, had it not been for Morgan and Wong, the Polaroid Man would have continued to hang around throughout the series, but killing the Polaroid man wasn't really a break from the style of season one, where we see much more key characters like Bletch and Adkins killed off. I guess I don't see season 3 as a return to season 1 form as much as I see it as each season being completely different, which I kind of liked myself. Like you said though, just my personal opinion, and, as we know, opinions vary greatly here. Although I am one of those few here who can get carried away and overly enthusiastic in these discussions, it is great to see the civil manner in which we disagree. I always welcome opposing views in what I think is one of the great debates we have going here. I just apologize in advance if I ever cross that line and offend, but I can say this would never be my intent.

[Guest Moriarty]

I never really had that much of a feeling like they left anything hanging from season one. True, the Owl/Rooster thing was totally new, but I don't think it consumed season two, as we had many stand along episodes that didn't really have much to do with the group itself. If anything, the ending of S1, Paper Dove, with Catherine being kidnaped, set up the first episode of season two. It's hard to say if, had it not been for Morgan and Wong, the Polaroid Man would have continued to hang around throughout the series, but killing the Polaroid man wasn't really a break from the style of season one, where we see much more key characters like Bletch and Adkins killed off. I guess I don't see season 3 as a return to season 1 form as much as I see it as each season being completely different, which I kind of liked myself. Like you said though, just my personal opinion, and, as we know, opinions vary greatly here. Although I am one of those few here who can get carried away and overly enthusiastic in these discussions, it is great to see the civil manner in which we disagree. I always welcome opposing views in what I think is one of the great debates we have going here. I just apologize in advance if I ever cross that line and offend, but I can say this would never be my intent.

Regarding the polaroid stalker I feel that it was a mistake to link him to the group. I think that Carter intended him to be some manifestation of Legion. They could have easily let Frank find Catherine without killing him off. The character was nicely set up in season 1 and imho M&W used him as a device to separate Frank and Catherine. For me that's a shame because the character had so much more potential. So yeah, the killing itself wasn't really a break from the style of season 1 but it was used to change the direction of the series. Due to that fact we have Frank separated from Catherine and Jordan which resulted in the creaction of another female leadrole (Lara) and in the exploration of the group itself (Owls/Roosters, Beware the dog, etc...). Now don't get me wrong, I am certainly not a season 2 hater. There were great episodes in it but I was just not that intereseted in the exploration of the group. You see, both in season 2 and 3 there were things that did not feel right for me. For instance I did not feel "connected" to the character of Emma. It's like she is just there to get in Frank's way. Season 1 had it all for me, nothing bothered me. But that's yet another discussion right. And yes, you are right what you say about the civil manner we disagree.

Later!

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

Regarding the polaroid stalker I feel that it was a mistake to link him to the group. I think that Carter intended him to be some manifestation of Legion. They could have easily let Frank find Catherine without killing him off. The character was nicely set up in season 1 and imho M&W used him as a device to separate Frank and Catherine. For me that's a shame because the character had so much more potential. So yeah, the killing itself wasn't really a break from the style of season 1 but it was used to change the direction of the series. Due to that fact we have Frank separated from Catherine and Jordan which resulted in the creaction of another female leadrole (Lara) and in the exploration of the group itself (Owls/Roosters, Beware the dog, etc...). Now don't get me wrong, I am certainly not a season 2 hater. There were great episodes in it but I was just not that intereseted in the exploration of the group. You see, both in season 2 and 3 there were things that did not feel right for me. For instance I did not feel "connected" to the character of Emma. It's like she is just there to get in Frank's way. Season 1 had it all for me, nothing bothered me. But that's yet another discussion right. And yes, you are right what you say about the civil manner we disagree.

Later!

Yes, I agree with most of what you say, and some of your other points are valid arguments. I guess what it all comes down to is not whether M & W did some of the things they did, as it is clear that did, but rather whether you enjoyed the resulting story. In my case, I am one of the few who enjoyed it almost entirely. Then, there are those who liked some aspects of it and didn't like others, as well as those who didn't like the Morgan and Wong contributions in season two at all. I feel fortunate that I did enjoy them so much because it allowed me to really get into the series all the way through and allowed for a pretty much uninterupted enthusiasm and appreciation throughout. As mentioned before, those who didn't care for Morgan and Wong only had to wait it out a week or two before they were treated to an excellent stand along episode. To their credit, I think Morgan and Wong pretty much allowed the others writers to have complete creative license for the episodes that they didn't write. For example, every episode we see regarding mythology, group conspiracies, and inner group turmoil seems to have been writen by M & W, while almost every episode not writen by them is almost devoid of this content. Morgan and Wong also take an occasional break from this story line with "The Curse of Frank Black", 19:19, "Pest House", and "Siren". For this reason I think they deserve a nice big

[Raven Wolf]

Morgan and Wong also take an occasional break from this story line with "The Curse of Frank Black", 19:19, "Pest House", and "Siren". For this reason I think they deserve a nice big kiss.gif

Quite right!

[4th Horseman]

Quite right!

Moriarty - Linking PM to the group, to everyone's knowledge IN the group EXCEPT for Frank i thought was fairly ingenious. It provided the viewer with a change of direction that forced one to consider that the group was at best, amoral...whatever benefit it could achieve, it did without regard for anyone's sake...

what you also have to consider is that PM at one time or another was most likely a candidate for the group, and, although no one here seems to be interested in discussing it, there was most certainly a connection between PM and Ed Kuffle due to common thread of the Polaroid pictures. Just how did this connection come about? Coincidence? I think not. Unfortunately, that avenue was never addressed. As to whether or not the character was intended to represent a manifestation of Legion, i dont think anyone can answer that with any degree of certainty.

4th Horseman...

[Guest Moriarty]

Moriarty - Linking PM to the group, to everyone's knowledge IN the group EXCEPT for Frank i thought was fairly ingenious. It provided the viewer with a change of direction that forced one to consider that the group was at best, amoral...whatever benefit it could achieve, it did without regard for anyone's sake...

what you also have to consider is that PM at one time or another was most likely a candidate for the group, and, although no one here seems to be interested in discussing it, there was most certainly a connection between PM and Ed Kuffle due to common thread of the Polaroid pictures. Just how did this connection come about? Coincidence? I think not. Unfortunately, that avenue was never addressed. As to whether or not the character was intended to represent a manifestation of Legion, i dont think anyone can answer that with any degree of certainty.

4th Horseman...

Never thought about the connection between PM and Ed Kuffle. It' possible I guess... But it is my opinion that PM had a lot more potential and like I have said earlier, M&W completely destroyed that potential by using him as a plot device to seperate Frank and Catherine. They sacrified a character for plot reasons. Some people tend to say that season 3 did not resolve the loose ends of season 2 but imho those ends should have been tied up in season 2 itself. Regarding the PS: what did he do for the group? Why did he target Frank? The girl from Anamnesis says to Catherine that she was tested by the same man that tested her. What does this mean? I believe that M&W should have answered those questions. Well, actually I believe that those questions should never been asked because they completely changed PM's character. The way he is seen on screen in Paper Dove clearly suggests that he is not human. Plus in 7+1 it is Legion who is sending Frank pictures in an attempt to drive him insane. That episode was written by CC and I believe absolutely that originally he had this in mind for PM. Off course, as always, this is just my idea.

Catch you later!