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Guest Legion

Alright let's say you joined the Millennium Group. It's politics time. Do you side with the Roosters or the Owls?  

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M&W completely destroyed that potential by using him as a plot device to seperate Frank and Catherine.

You wont really get too much of an argument with this particular assessment of PM...not only was the question of how he was involved with Claire in Anamanesis, but also, and again i digress, his obvious involvement with the group and Ed Kuffel were, unacceptably, left unanswered...If we want to talk character sacrifice at the expense of plot, then lets talk about Lucy Butler...

where was she during the entire S2? We went from Lamentations and flashes of her in PPTD, to NOTHING in S2, then she suddenly reappears in Antipas in S3....where the hell was she during this specific time frame? On the back burner because all of a sudden, the winds of change blew the show askew of its intended course...of all the issues i find dissatisfying concerning S2, this was the zenith...

Again, though, continual discussions over which season was best really brings forth no real fruit. I really dont know just how much more we can beat this issue into the ground...

this is my last post on this issue, and i will drop it by saying I NEVER SAID I HATED S2...WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR WHAT SEEMS LIKE AN ETERNITY NOW OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, IS THAT ALTHOUGH SOME OF MY FAVORITE ISSUES CAN BE CULLED FROM S2, OVERALL, I DID NOT LIKE THE CHANGE OF IDEAS CONCERNING WHAT WAS ORIGIONALLY CONCEIVED...

my best friend loves summer, i prefer winter. I am never going to change his mind, and neither will he change mine. To continue to argue over a personal preference really does nothing but spark the flame of resentment over time...

4th Horseman...

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Guest Moriarty
M&W completely destroyed that potential by using him as a plot device to seperate Frank and Catherine.

You wont really get too much of an argument with this particular assessment of PM...not only was the question of how he was involved with Claire in Anamanesis, but also, and again i digress, his obvious involvement with the group and Ed Kuffel were, unacceptably, left unanswered...If we want to talk character sacrifice at the expense of plot, then lets talk about Lucy Butler...

where was she during the entire S2? We went from Lamentations and flashes of her in PPTD, to NOTHING in S2, then she suddenly reappears in Antipas in S3....where the hell was she during this specific time frame? On the back burner because all of a sudden, the winds of change blew the show askew of its intended course...of all the issues i find dissatisfying concerning S2, this was the zenith...

Again, though, continual discussions over which season was best really brings forth no real fruit. I really dont know just how much more we can beat this issue into the ground...

this is my last post on this issue, and i will drop it by saying I NEVER SAID I HATED S2...WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR WHAT SEEMS LIKE AN ETERNITY NOW OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, IS THAT ALTHOUGH SOME OF MY FAVORITE ISSUES CAN BE CULLED FROM S2, OVERALL, I DID NOT LIKE THE CHANGE OF IDEAS CONCERNING WHAT WAS ORIGIONALLY CONCEIVED...

my best friend loves summer, i prefer winter. I am never going to change his mind, and neither will he change mine. To continue to argue over a personal preference really does nothing but spark the flame of resentment over time...

4th Horseman...

You are right 4th horseman. However, allow me to say that Lucy was in season 2, namely in A room with no view. But yes, I agree, no argument over personal preferences. Maybe I got carried away because I am relatively new here and wanted to express my points of view regarding the series that brought us together. I am eager to discuss evey aspect of MM...

Take care!

Edited by Moriarty
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You are right 4th horseman. However, allow me to say that Lucy was in season 2, namely in A room with no view. But yes, I agree, no argument over personal preferences. Maybe I got carried away because I am relatively new here and wanted to express my points of view regarding the series that brought us together. I am eager to discuss evey aspect of MM...

Take care!

M my friend...absolutely, please dont construe my frustration with you personally. Its just that this banter between which season was the best has been going on for longer than primarily any other issue...and please forgive me, i forgot about A Room With no View...however, her character was not one that was anywhere similar to Lamentations or Antipas, there was no direct face to face encounters with Frank, therefore it was, in my opinion, a wasted appearance...the straw that stirred the drink was Frank's encounters with Lucy, their banter back and forth...

Again, your posts are wonderful and very intelligent. I truely enjoy reading every one of them. You are an asset to TIWWA and i look forward to sharing thoughts with you again in the future...

take care,

4th Horseman..

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Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___
I have often thought that the Season 2 MillenniuM and the Seasons 1&3 MillenniuM were like 2 different shows, almost like some kind of alternate universe like Frank experienced with the Siren, only M&W forgot to write that into the script! LOL

Truly, though. Season 2 became a completely different premise premise. I kind of wish we could have had two different shows - one with the M&W mythology running through the entire series, and one with the original premise running through the entire series. That might be a cool idea for a virtual series, if someone is so inclined. Have an alternate virtual 1st and alternate virtual 3rd season (M&W style) build around the real 2nd season; and on the other hand have an an alternate virtual 2nd season (original premise style) built as a bridge between real 1st and 3rd seasons. Perhaps a project for future fan fiction writers.

I wouldn't want to loose either. I suppose that is why, most of the time, I just "go with it" in a sense, and suspend perceptions of incongruity. Or I just enjoy the sort of unintential clunkiness involved, all part of the underlying fun of Millennium fandom.

In the final analysis, I usually just enjoy MLM as it is, and go with the "somehowness" of the show. I still love it, and I have yet to see anything comparable to MLM.

Excellent idea! And I think a very balanced perspective in my opinion... Good thought about suspending disbelief and just enjoying the show regardless of direction; this is EXACTLY the same thought that I brought out about not necessarily viewing EVERY episode as a part of the 'whole', but enjoying some out of context. Nicely said :yes:

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Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___
I never really had that much of a feeling like they left anything hanging from season one. True, the Owl/Rooster thing was totally new, but I don't think it consumed season two, as we had many stand along episodes that didn't really have much to do with the group itself. If anything, the ending of S1, Paper Dove, with Catherine being kidnaped, set up the first episode of season two. It's hard to say if, had it not been for Morgan and Wong, the Polaroid Man would have continued to hang around throughout the series, but killing the Polaroid man wasn't really a break from the style of season one, where we see much more key characters like Bletch and Adkins killed off. I guess I don't see season 3 as a return to season 1 form as much as I see it as each season being completely different, which I kind of liked myself. Like you said though, just my personal opinion, and, as we know, opinions vary greatly here.

Yes, I must agree. Even though I am strongly biased because I do like S2 very much, still, I honestly do not get the feeling or impression that S2 was an 'ignoring' of S1 as much as an enhancing or branching off. However, I VERY MUCH sensed the specific and extremely POINTED feeling that S3 was VERY deliberately ignoring most of S2. But, in all fairness, CC did have the right to try to sort of 'bring the show back' at least somewhat closer to what he intended it.

Although I am one of those few here who can get carried away and overly enthusiastic in these discussions, it is great to see the civil manner in which we disagree. I always welcome opposing views in what I think is one of the great debates we have going here. I just apologize in advance if I ever cross that line and offend, but I can say this would never be my intent.

I'd like to take this moment and take up MIB's offer to express an opposing view... :fuyou_2:

And, I would like to enthusiastically demonstrate a healthy blending of civility and crossing the line and being offensive... :roedecker::boody::w00t:

Thank you very much.

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Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___
Regarding the polaroid stalker I feel that it was a mistake to link him to the group. I think that Carter intended him to be some manifestation of Legion. They could have easily let Frank find Catherine without killing him off. The character was nicely set up in season 1 and imho M&W used him as a device to separate Frank and Catherine. For me that's a shame because the character had so much more potential. So yeah, the killing itself wasn't really a break from the style of season 1 but it was used to change the direction of the series. Due to that fact we have Frank separated from Catherine and Jordan which resulted in the creaction of another female leadrole (Lara) and in the exploration of the group itself (Owls/Roosters, Beware the dog, etc...). Now don't get me wrong, I am certainly not a season 2 hater. There were great episodes in it but I was just not that intereseted in the exploration of the group. You see, both in season 2 and 3 there were things that did not feel right for me. For instance I did not feel "connected" to the character of Emma. It's like she is just there to get in Frank's way. Season 1 had it all for me, nothing bothered me. But that's yet another discussion right. And yes, you are right what you say about the civil manner we disagree.

Later!

First let me say that I definitely had a strong 'connection' to Emma... :w00t:

Or, at least WISH I had :wink:

However, you make an excellent point here Moriarity (I like the name and character, BTW :yes: ) I must admit that to me to be totally honest Season 1 was probably the PUREST form of MillenniuM; like you said, 'Nothing bothered you'. In other words, I would say that just about ANYONE would not fault Season 1 in and of itself. It was going in a VERY solid, definite direction with a VERY strong sense of the coming MillenniuM and the impending clash of Good & Evil, you could REALLY feel it.

So, I can fully see how when all of the sudden the show, like you accurately said, went off in these colorful directions and especially delved deeper into 'The Group', you could be left feeling like 'Hey, where did this great show go? Right? So, I think what I'm seeing here is for people that REALLY liked the absolute purity of Chris Carter's original vision which was beautifully expressed in Season 1, then these strong deviations would really put them off, and very understandably so. However, for those of us who don't mind perhaps wild, imaginative flights of fancy, so to speak, and who REALLY got into all the colorful mythology and such, well, to us this was REALLY entertaining. However, I think I can honestly see where you are coming from. Sorta like 'Hey, we had a damn good thing, why mess around with it?

I tell you, being here and learning SO damn much about the show and especially coming more to understand exactly WHY certain people feel certain ways about the show REALLY has helped my to have a WAY better and more comprehensive understanding and MUCH fuller appreciation for this unique and wonderful show. And, it has introduced me to Colorful and Violently Alcoholic characters like MIB!!! :rofl:

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Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___
M my friend...absolutely, please dont construe my frustration with you personally. Its just that this banter between which season was the best has been going on for longer than primarily any other issue...and please forgive me, i forgot about A Room With no View...however, her character was not one that was anywhere similar to Lamentations or Antipas, there was no direct face to face encounters with Frank, therefore it was, in my opinion, a wasted appearance...the straw that stirred the drink was Frank's encounters with Lucy, their banter back and forth...

Again, your posts are wonderful and very intelligent. I truely enjoy reading every one of them. You are an asset to TIWWA and i look forward to sharing thoughts with you again in the future...

take care,

4th Horseman..

Moriarity, since you are new here, you are not aware of the fact that 4th Horseman has stated quite frequently and vehemently that he will not be bloody satisfied until he sees some SERIOUS action between Lucy and Frank...

If you know what I mean... :WhipMeLucysaidFrank::w00t:

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Guest Moriarty
First let me say that I definitely had a strong 'connection' to Emma... :w00t:

Or, at least WISH I had :wink:

However, you make an excellent point here Moriarity (I like the name and character, BTW :yes: ) I must admit that to me to be totally honest Season 1 was probably the PUREST form of MillenniuM; like you said, 'Nothing bothered you'. In other words, I would say that just about ANYONE would not fault Season 1 in and of itself. It was going in a VERY solid, definite direction with a VERY strong sense of the coming MillenniuM and the impending clash of Good & Evil, you could REALLY feel it.

So, I can fully see how when all of the sudden the show, like you accurately said, went off in these colorful directions and especially delved deeper into 'The Group', you could be left feeling like 'Hey, where did this great show go? Right? So, I think what I'm seeing here is for people that REALLY liked the absolute purity of Chris Carter's original vision which was beautifully expressed in Season 1, then these strong deviations would really put them off, and very understandably so. However, for those of us who don't mind perhaps wild, imaginative flights of fancy, so to speak, and who REALLY got into all the colorful mythology and such, well, to us this was REALLY entertaining. However, I think I can honestly see where you are coming from. Sorta like 'Hey, we had a damn good thing, why mess around with it?

I tell you, being here and learning SO damn much about the show and especially coming more to understand exactly WHY certain people feel certain ways about the show REALLY has helped my to have a WAY better and more comprehensive understanding and MUCH fuller appreciation for this unique and wonderful show. And, it has introduced me to Colorful and Violently Alcoholic characters like MIB!!! :rofl:

Hey Lathe. You are absolutely correct in your post above. I had this feeling: damn good thing, where did it go? But you know, I still enjoy season 2. The Mikado, The curse of Frank Black and off course the 2 part finale were great. And that's coming from a guy who did not like the group mythology in that season. It was ahead of its time and it's a shame they cancelled it. :down:

Now that I am typing, I have 2 questions: what does "Lathe" mean? And is MIB really an alcoholic? :yes:

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
First let me say that I definitely had a strong 'connection' to Emma... :w00t:

Or, at least WISH I had :wink:

However, you make an excellent point here Moriarity (I like the name and character, BTW :yes: ) I must admit that to me to be totally honest Season 1 was probably the PUREST form of MillenniuM; like you said, 'Nothing bothered you'. In other words, I would say that just about ANYONE would not fault Season 1 in and of itself. It was going in a VERY solid, definite direction with a VERY strong sense of the coming MillenniuM and the impending clash of Good & Evil, you could REALLY feel it.

So, I can fully see how when all of the sudden the show, like you accurately said, went off in these colorful directions and especially delved deeper into 'The Group', you could be left feeling like 'Hey, where did this great show go? Right? So, I think what I'm seeing here is for people that REALLY liked the absolute purity of Chris Carter's original vision which was beautifully expressed in Season 1, then these strong deviations would really put them off, and very understandably so. However, for those of us who don't mind perhaps wild, imaginative flights of fancy, so to speak, and who REALLY got into all the colorful mythology and such, well, to us this was REALLY entertaining. However, I think I can honestly see where you are coming from. Sorta like 'Hey, we had a damn good thing, why mess around with it?

I tell you, being here and learning SO damn much about the show and especially coming more to understand exactly WHY certain people feel certain ways about the show REALLY has helped my to have a WAY better and more comprehensive understanding and MUCH fuller appreciation for this unique and wonderful show. And, it has introduced me to Colorful and Violently Alcoholic characters like MIB!!! :rofl:

Hmm, that's a new one. I don't believe I have ever been referred to as "violently alcoholic" before. This is totally untrue, and the next time I get drunk I'm going to give you a beating for implying that it is. Where's my hickory stick anyway. :oneeyedwinK Yes, I agree, that's what it all comes down to, preference. For every person who disliked season two and M & W, there was someone who ate it up. It's just a shame that they couldn't please a larger majority of the viewers.

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
Yes, I must agree. Even though I am strongly biased because I do like S2 very much, still, I honestly do not get the feeling or impression that S2 was an 'ignoring' of S1 as much as an enhancing or branching off. However, I VERY MUCH sensed the specific and extremely POINTED feeling that S3 was VERY deliberately ignoring most of S2. But, in all fairness, CC did have the right to try to sort of 'bring the show back' at least somewhat closer to what he intended it.

I'd like to take this moment and take up MIB's offer to express an opposing view... :fuyou_2:

And, I would like to enthusiastically demonstrate a healthy blending of civility and crossing the line and being offensive... :roedecker::boody::w00t:

Thank you very much.

It's funny because, at the time, I never even really gave much thought to the developing story line regarding the Millennium group in season two. To me, it just seemed like a natural progression of the show, and that they simply felt like it was time to give the viewers some background into the history and beliefs within the group, which had remained largely undefined in season one. With season three, as much as I loved it, it just felt as though they swept season two under the carpet. Although I quickly readjusted to the season three changes, I think the S3 writing probably annoyed a lot of the viewers who DID enjoy the direction of season two and the story line M & W were developing with the MM group.

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