Owls/Roosters

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

I did enjoy those episodes - the variety in the show is what makes it enjoyable. I just get annoyed it wasn't incorporated into the continuity more. Millennium's continiuty isn't very good! Season 2 is indeed my favourite, I love the Darin Morgan episodes, and the excellent writing throughout that series. Season 3 is a close second, and I enjoyed the first season least. I found it too samey. That's not saying I didn't love it - it's all pretty close. Each season has its great episodes. Season 2 has the most, in my view, and I enjoyed the creativity and vision during that season. Controversial, I know.

Limebunneh is the name of my website:

My actual name is Bill. I didn't think that sounded as good.

Cute cat though!! He has a little lime helmet, hehe!

Yes, limecat is a cute little character. I was watching my brother playing on line poker one day (the non betting kind of course), and one of the players at the table was lime cat. We got a real kick out of it, and it took off from there. This Christmas I might get him a limecat t-shirt. I like the picture on your web page as well. Maybe I will go there and take a look around.

I agree, as much as I liked season two, it did kind of lack continuity between some of the episodes, but I guess that can happen when you have so many different writers on one show, and apparently, the show runners, who have been pointed out to me as being Glen Morgan and James Wong, didn't make it a point to maintain continuity throughout the season. At first this took me by surprise and threw me off a little bit, but I got used to it quickly and enjoyed most of the S2 episodes. Now I have the DVDs, so I can pretty much just select whatever I'm in the mood for. There have often been complaints that season 2 was allowed to run astray from the direction that season one established, but as you say, season one did tend to be samey, and this would have been the case even more so had they just proceeded with season two as a continuation of season one. Some think that season two doomed the series to a premature demise, but I don't think it would have lasted that much longer, if any, had they decided not to change things up. As has been discussed here many times, the general public just doesn't have the attention span for something as intelligent and thought provoking as Millennium.

I really loved the Darin Morgan episodes as well, but then again, there were very few that I didn't like in season two. Season two really did a great job with the comical and quirky episodes, but season three kind of fell flat on it's face when it tried to continue the trend with 13 Years Later. Just my opinion though. I did love season three, but from what I have seen, you have a unique perspective on the show. In most cases, it seems as though members select either S1 or S2 as their favorite, the other of the two as second, and then S3 as third, but no one here will ever fault you for your personal preference, and I think I have seen just about every variation of rankings of the three season. I personally liked S2 the best, followed closely by S1 and then S3. I did, however, like each of the three seasons more than just about anything else i have ever seen on TV.

[Guest limebunneh]

Yes, limecat is a cute little character. I was watching my brother playing on line poker one day (the non betting kind of course), and one of the players at the table was lime cat. We got a real kick out of it, and it took off from there. This Christmas I might get him a limecat t-shirt. I like the picture on your web page as well. Maybe I will go there and take a look around.

I agree, as much as I liked season two, it did kind of lack continuity between some of the episodes, but I guess that can happen when you have so many different writers on one show, and apparently, the show runners, who have been pointed out to me as being Glen Morgan and James Wong, didn't make it a point to maintain continuity throughout the season. At first this took me by surprise and threw me off a little bit, but I got used to it quickly and enjoyed most of the S2 episodes. Now I have the DVDs, so I can pretty much just select whatever I'm in the mood for. There have often been complaints that season 2 was allowed to run astray from the direction that season one established, but as you say, season one did tend to be samey, and this would have been the case even more so had they just proceeded with season two as a continuation of season one. Some think that season two doomed the series to a premature demise, but I don't think it would have lasted that much longer, if any, had they decided not to change things up. As has been discussed here many times, the general public just doesn't have the attention span for something as intelligent and thought provoking as Millennium.

I really loved the Darin Morgan episodes as well, but then again, there were very few that I didn't like in season two. Season two really did a great job with the comical and quirky episodes, but season three kind of fell flat on it's face when it tried to continue the trend with 13 Years Later. Just my opinion though. I did love season three, but from what I have seen, you have a unique perspective on the show. In most cases, it seems as though members select either S1 or S2 as their favorite, the other of the two as second, and then S3 as third, but no one here will ever fault you for your personal preference, and I think I have seen just about every variation of rankings of the three season. I personally liked S2 the best, followed closely by S1 and then S3. I did, however, like each of the three seasons more than just about anything else i have ever seen on TV.

Season 2 ambition and reach give it an added something. Though not every episode hit the mark for me, most did. On refelection I do question the important of 'Owls/Rooster', but they are incredibly enjoyable episodes. The sense of humour was sorely missed in the first season - I know the show is about darkness, but I think darkness is always best contrasted with the light. They did this in the first season with Frank's family life, but I think more humour would have improved matters. Season 3 had its lighter moments, which I enjoyed. When I remember season 1 I just remember the doom and gloom, which episode-after-episode became too much sometimes. I LOVE that season as I say, but yeah, variety is the spice of life. Fortunately we were given that with two seasons afterwards!

At first I hated season 3. The first two episodes were a major disappointment. But once I got used to the idea, I relaxed a little. There are some brilliant episodes - but also some of the worse. Human Essence I really think is the worst episode of the show. I didn't like Matryoshka or Bardo Thodol. And I still hate the opening two episodes for the way they destroyed the season2 final and skipped over the major event with a pathetic cop-out. But those weaker episodes are more then made up for by Skull and Bones, Through a Glass, Darkly, The Sound of Snow, Antipas, Saturn Dreaming of Mercury, Seven and One and the final. And I may add I didn't think '...Thirteen Years Later' was TOO bad.

Ps. The limecat looks like someone tried to use it as a juicer!! Hehe. And my website is just a bit silliness. Limes = silly!

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

Season 2 ambition and reach give it an added something. Though not every episode hit the mark for me, most did. On refelection I do question the important of 'Owls/Rooster', but they are incredibly enjoyable episodes. The sense of humour was sorely missed in the first season - I know the show is about darkness, but I think darkness is always best contrasted with the light. They did this in the first season with Frank's family life, but I think more humour would have improved matters. Season 3 had its lighter moments, which I enjoyed. When I remember season 1 I just remember the doom and gloom, which episode-after-episode became too much sometimes. I LOVE that season as I say, but yeah, variety is the spice of life. Fortunately we were given that with two seasons afterwards!

At first I hated season 3. The first two episodes were a major disappointment. But once I got used to the idea, I relaxed a little. There are some brilliant episodes - but also some of the worse. Human Essence I really think is the worst episode of the show. I didn't like Matryoshka or Bardo Thodol. And I still hate the opening two episodes for the way they destroyed the season2 final and skipped over the major event with a pathetic cop-out. But those weaker episodes are more then made up for by Skull and Bones, Through a Glass, Darkly, The Sound of Snow, Antipas, Saturn Dreaming of Mercury, Seven and One and the final. And I may add I didn't think '...Thirteen Years Later' was TOO bad.

Ps. The limecat looks like someone tried to use it as a juicer!! Hehe. And my website is just a bit silliness. Limes = silly!

Wow, your opinions are eerily similar to mine. I didn't care for season 3 as much at first either. When the series ended, I don't think they even reran the season three episodes, at least not that I remember. I also don't remember season three being shown when the series was picked up by FX. Therefore, I forgot much of what went on in season three, and I think the poor opening episodes, as well as some of the final ones, which I found to be a bit confusing or boring (Matryoshka, Bardo Thodol), gave me a distorted memory of S3. With the 5 or 6 year absence of the series before the DVD release, I remembered season three as being far behind S1 and S2. It wasn't until I got the DVDs and watched S3 again that I realized how awesome some of the individual episodes were, and I have concluded over the past couple of years that S3 is a lot closer to the S1 and S2 greatness than I had given it credit for. At first I didn't like The Innocents and Exegesis, probably due to the way they handled the ending of season two. However, they have grown on me somewhat, and I can watch and enjoy them occasionally. The eerie thing is that your favorites and least favorites match mine almost exactly, with the exception of 13 Years Later. Oh, and I would also add Borrowed Time to the list of great ones. Other than that it's just about an exact match.

[Guest limebunneh]

Wow, your opinions are eerily similar to mine. I didn't care for season 3 as much at first either. When the series ended, I don't think they even reran the season three episodes, at least not that I remember. I also don't remember season three being shown when the series was picked up by FX. Therefore, I forgot much of what went on in season three, and I think the poor opening episodes, as well as some of the final ones, which I found to be a bit confusing or boring (Matryoshka, Bardo Thodol), gave me a distorted memory of S3. With the 5 or 6 year absence of the series before the DVD release, I remembered season three as being far behind S1 and S2. It wasn't until I got the DVDs and watched S3 again that I realized how awesome some of the individual episodes were, and I have concluded over the past couple of years that S3 is a lot closer to the S1 and S2 greatness than I had given it credit for. At first I didn't like The Innocents and Exegesis, probably due to the way they handled the ending of season two. However, they have grown on me somewhat, and I can watch and enjoy them occasionally. The eerie thing is that your favorites and least favorites match mine almost exactly, with the exception of 13 Years Later. Oh, and I would also add Borrowed Time to the list of great ones. Other than that it's just about an exact match.

Borrowed Time, yes, how could I forget! You really think 13 Years Later is THAT bad? Is it a commonly hated episode? The only thing that bothered me was a slightly off movie refrence when they said Jason's mother killed with a hocky mask on - no, she was just the killer in the first and only Jason wore the mask - however, I can put this down to Frank's ignorance. And the idea of Frank watching slashers I just find amusing anyway. Maybe that's why I like it, I'm very easily amused!

I'll need to give The Innocents and Exegesis another go. Only seen them once when I got the DVDs, so I'll maybe watch them again tomorrow. Try and judge them on their own merits!

[Guest Eddie]

I think this two-parter is one of the best stories MM had to offer. Although some things may be a bit too far off for MM the story itself is extremely well told (and gives Catherine something to do by the way! ).

I'd rate "Owls" 5/5 and "Roosters" 4/5. The only things that really bother me in the second part are

- the end of the episode, that just feels a bit rushed, and

- the belief of the owls involving this "cosmic bubble". This script idea is just rediculous, especially as no human being could ever do anything to prevent Earth (and the whole universe!) from being destroyed. So why bother with the group anyway?

I really liked these two episodes also, in fact they are two of my favorites. But then, I like conspiracy theories, and that the group had a longer history and bigger purpose. That's what I liked most about Batman Begins, the new one with Christian Bale (sp?). What I liked about it was not the fighting, or even all the effects, but mostly this group that supposedly influenced the course of history. I did not care for any of the previous Batman movies, and gave up on them after the second. But this one seemed more adult. I bring this up only because of a kind of parallel with the Millenium group, minus any connotations either of them had about right/wrong/good/evil/etc.

[Guest SouthernCelt]

I really liked these two episodes also, in fact they are two of my favorites. But then, I like conspiracy theories, and that the group had a longer history and bigger purpose. That's what I liked most about Batman Begins, the new one with Christian Bale (sp?). What I liked about it was not the fighting, or even all the effects, but mostly this group that supposedly influenced the course of history. I did not care for any of the previous Batman movies, and gave up on them after the second. But this one seemed more adult. I bring this up only because of a kind of parallel with the Millenium group, minus any connotations either of them had about right/wrong/good/evil/etc.

I'm with you on this, Eddie. I'm fascinated by conspiracy plots as long as they don't go too far afield. There was enough factual stuff, e.g., Odessa, in this to help keep it 'real'.

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

I'm with you on this, Eddie. I'm fascinated by conspiracy plots as long as they don't go too far afield. There was enough factual stuff, e.g., Odessa, in this to help keep it 'real'.

I agree, I had originally remembered them as two episodes that were not among my favorites, but have really grown to like them now that I have watched them a two or three times this past year. Once again, this is a case of episodes that I had to get used to, because they weren't typical Millennium episodes, and were a bit off from the "mood" I expected when tuning in to the show, but like the Hand of Saint Sebastian, they have worked their way onto my list of favorites.

[Guest Moriarty]

I agree, I had originally remembered them as two episodes that were not among my favorites, but have really grown to like them now that I have watched them a two or three times this past year. Once again, this is a case of episodes that I had to get used to, because they weren't typical Millennium episodes, and were a bit off from the "mood" I expected when tuning in to the show, but like the Hand of Saint Sebastian, they have worked their way onto my list of favorites.

Well, I rewatched the two-parter yesterday evening and it just does not work for me. For some reason the group mythology epsiodes in season 2 seems to far fetched for me. I can't point out why but that's how they make me feel. The Hand of Saint Sebastian, Owls, Roosters... I don't know why I dislike them. It is weird because the two-parter season finale did work according to me. I also like some stand alones from season 2 like Luminary and off course The Mikado for example. Maybe it is the fact that these episodes deal with ancient artifacts (Sebastian, Owls and Roosters) which I think are to far fetched. I mean, some ancient hand, the cross of the crucifixtion? Just seems so... I don't know how to explain it. I feel that the link between some historical events and the group was overdone. On the other hand I very much liked Anamnesis which also deals with historical events but I think that that episode was better written. So I guess I am kind of confused on the matter :-)

[Guest ZeusFaber]

I'm with you Moriarty. The episodes that started chasing ancient artefacts didn't appeal to me at all -- the Saturday-morning version of the show and nothing like what it used to be. Indinanna Jones's adventures with James Bond's gadgets.

However, I also agree that the two-part finale was much more successful. It was a much more grounded story that was all the better for it.

[Guest Jim McLean]

While I enjoyed this story in its own right, I didn't feel it really suited what I felt Millennium should be about. I felt that from Frank being a profile consultant on sexual crimes, to being looked at as a potential candidate for a neo-nazi group which had infiltrated American society and part of a secret war against another powerful secret organisation just too jarring.

My other issue comes from this type of arc episode, and my reservations are the same as the ilk created for the X-Files: it neuters the protagonist from being active. In the end, he can only be a minor player reacting to larger events, which becomes unsatisfying and slightly frustrating.

I mean, the direction, editing and general story writing comes together as one of the first in the era of television becoming the new Hollywood; the slick and film like approach to TV we have today in shows across genre from House to Battlestar Galactica has firm roots in the serious 90s dramas, and Millennium is a great example. And I love that craft that this show presents.

And yes, the use of owls and roosters was a great idea, the reuse of the Old Man worked well. I also loved the cross-scene approach in Roosters between Peter and Frank in regards to lies, but overall, I can't recouncile this "Millennium" approach to Carters very easily.

It does tie itself to the original season in its dialogue between Peter and Frank, just how twisted Frank's life has become, but I don't know, Millennium was such an earthy show. Even the mythological episodes work on an immediate level because they are so intimate to the central characters, but this epic story is too X-Files.

Though I suppose given they share the same universe, we shouldn't be surprised. :)

Question: Why had the group not disposed of the Nazi group earlier? Is it simply the responsibility of the power prevented it? That only now was there just cause?

I think the beautiful irony of this episode is it shows the Owls and Roosters in fandom; those who embrace the direction of season 2 and those who do not! Curious!