Guest F_Black Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I think the beautiful irony of this episode is it shows the Owls and Roosters in fandom; those who embrace the direction of season 2 and those who do not! Can't there be a middle ground? Can't we all just get along?! =) I'm kind of in the middle, actually. I really liked the mythology aspects, not necessarily chasing down ancient artifacts and such, but the idea that The Group has a long history. St. Sebastian is one of my favorites just for that reason. That notion that there is a continuity between people from a thousand years ago dreading the coming millennium and us really connected with me (my degree is in archaeology), and still resonates. Matter of fact, in lectures I still try to make the point that studying the past isn't just about a bunch of strange people from way back then a couple thousand years ago and way over there in Egypt or Mesopotamia or wherever, but it's a part of our own history and, um, well, Who We Are today. Still. . . .overall, I'm with you in that I didn't like the direction they took The Group, that of being a far-flung super-duper techno-enhanced entity, which reminded me more of the Cancer Man group in The X-Files. You could still have some tension between Frank and whether he wants to be a part of something quasi-religious without going all loopy with Nazis and cosmic space-time rendings and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim McLean Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 I think the beautiful irony of this episode is it shows the Owls and Roosters in fandom; those who embrace the direction of season 2 and those who do not! Can't there be a middle ground? Can't we all just get along?! =) I'm kind of in the middle, actually. I really liked the mythology aspects, not necessarily chasing down ancient artifacts and such, but the idea that The Group has a long history. St. Sebastian is one of my favorites just for that reason. That notion that there is a continuity between people from a thousand years ago dreading the coming millennium and us really connected with me (my degree is in archaeology), and still resonates. Matter of fact, in lectures I still try to make the point that studying the past isn't just about a bunch of strange people from way back then a couple thousand years ago and way over there in Egypt or Mesopotamia or wherever, but it's a part of our own history and, um, well, Who We Are today. Still. . . .overall, I'm with you in that I didn't like the direction they took The Group, that of being a far-flung super-duper techno-enhanced entity, which reminded me more of the Cancer Man group in The X-Files. You could still have some tension between Frank and whether he wants to be a part of something quasi-religious without going all loopy with Nazis and cosmic space-time rendings and such. I think I'd have been happier with a middleground; exploring the more mythological interest of the group, and bringing the question of good and evil further into the show - which meant the Owls and Roosters would still have relevance, I just wouldn't be making such blatant mystical commentary throughout. It just makes the show too X-Files (which itself had its owls and rooster stylistic battle throughout - monsteroftheweek vs conspiracy). To me, the series gets a little uncomfortable when it moves too "magical" (it becomes too much like "Monster of the Week" X-Files with everyone disbelieving until proven true to the audience at the end) or too conspiracy (and like the X-Files no definitive resolution can be drawn because its too big for Frank to remedy). We didn't need another X-Files and keeping the show in realism, hunting killers and maybe occasionally touching on supernatural belief and the core fears of the Millennium Group would have given season two more of its own idenitity. Don't get me wrong, there are some great stories in season two, but I found Millennium felt weakest when it was trying to either hard sell a mythological conspiracy as being factually probable or entering the supernatural (in which the effects just looked crude and awkward). Sometimes this elements would work, but I don't think Millennium was a show that needed them, and that was the big pity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PROVO_SIX Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 Probably because I'm a devout Roman Catholic, I've always considered Owls/Roosters and the Hand of Saint Sebastian my two favorite episodes. These were most intriguing since the series came out a few years after reading "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" -- the inspiration for Dan Brown's The Davinci Code. As a quick-hit, Morgan and Wong handle these delicate matters of factionalism and Christian lore with so much more intelligence than the over-hyped, excessively boring Davinci Code. The entire notion of secret societies, from the Priori de Sion, Masons, Rosecrucians, and Nazi affiliated Thules... these, technically, three episodes truly made me a life-long fan. I can go on-and-on about the Hand of Saint Sebastian, but I won't -- only adding that I'll always remember Terry O'Quinn's acting and the passion Peter Watts exhibited for his pursuit of truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ethsnafu Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 Hi Provo! Don't think I've had the pleasure of replying to you before. I've nattered to death on Owls and Roosters in the past so won't offend by recycling my thoughts but please do give us your twopenneth with regards to 'The Hand of Saint Sebastian'. Like you I am Catholic and like you I read 'Holy Blood, Holy Grail' many moons ago and would be interested to hear you views. 'Sebastian' seems undeniably vilified around these parts but I have a fondness for it and have never seen a rhetoric on this episode elevate itself above criticism so if you would like someone to bat a few topics with on the subject I'm your 'eth'. Best wishes and look forward to whatever musings come my way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Black's Babe Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) Owls was a bit too "cloak and Dagger" for me. really starting to like Lara Means and didn't like how Watts rudely dismissed her towards the end of the episode. Edited February 25, 2009 by Black's Babe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Laurent. Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Owls was a bit too "cloak and Dagger" for me. That's also my opinion! Although, in this genre of episode, these two are a lot superior to The Hand of Saint-Sebastian! really starting to like Lara Means and didn't like how Watts rudely dismissed her towards the end of the episode. Can you refresh my memory? What happened exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Black's Babe Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 That's also my opinion! Although, in this genre of episode, these two are a lot superior to The Hand of Saint-Sebastian! Can you refresh my memory? What happened exactly? Watts saw her name in Johnson's journal and assumed she had betrayed them for the Owls. the entry said "made contact with Lara Means" instead of asking her about it, Watts told Lara that her services were no longer needed. and to get out of his sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ethsnafu Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Hi Black's Babe, Hope you don't mind me shoving my thoughts into the mix but you touched on a favourite subject of mine, Ms. Means, and I always take the bait on subjects such as this. The notion that Watts dismisses Lara from the group merely for conversing with the Owls doesn't, on the face of it, make much sense given that they are a legitimate faction of the group and one would assume that members are free to choose their allegiance to either faction. My own way of resolving this is to assume that Peter is already aware that Johnston is allied to something other than the group as implied in Roosters, whether that be Odessa as the group came to believe or Legion as fans generally feel it is implied is up to the viewer. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on this :) Best wishes, Eth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Black's Babe Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) Hi Black's Babe, Hope you don't mind me shoving my thoughts into the mix but you touched on a favourite subject of mine, Ms. Means, and I always take the bait on subjects such as this. The notion that Watts dismisses Lara from the group merely for conversing with the Owls doesn't, on the face of it, make much sense given that they are a legitimate faction of the group and one would assume that members are free to choose their allegiance to either faction. My own way of resolving this is to assume that Peter is already aware that Johnston is allied to something other than the group as implied in Roosters, whether that be Odessa as the group came to believe or Legion as fans generally feel it is implied is up to the viewer. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on this :) Best wishes, Eth When those "Owls" showed up at Johnston's autopsy, they weren't exactly greeted with open arrms. I can understand Watts being "curious" about Lara's name being in the journal. With all that had occured at that point. However, I think she deserved to be given the benefit of the doubt and Watts should've simply asked her about it. Still have to watch "Roosters" later tonight. Okay here's my thoughts on Roosters... Didn't care much for this s/l, but liked this episode better than Owls. Personally I think "The Old Man" placed a bullseye on his chest and took one for the team. As a result of his murder... Both factions of TMG came back together, with one common goal. Odessa was taken out with EXTREME PREJUDICE. Both Frank and Lara are back on board as candidates. TMG has posession of the artifact. Mission Accomplished. Oh and that Mummy looked ridiculous. 8/10 R.I.P. Jim Ford... Edited February 26, 2009 by Black's Babe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest frankblack13 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 was Frank an Owl or a Rooster? that part always confused me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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