Emma & Antipas

[4th Horseman]

Having re-watched Antipas recently, i was wondering if any of you picked up on this as well...

First of all, we have the whole enchilada of Frank requesting that Emma be removed from this case for no real apparent reason (at least to Emma)..Frank never really reveals to her just why (obviously to protect her) he asks MacClaren to hand the case over to him...

2. The scene at the motel post-succibus - she pauses and looks around the room, noticing Frank's condition, (agitation, sweating) etc, and the condition of the room, yet she never asks him what is going on..

3. The entire chase scene with Lucy as the long-haired man, finding the senator hanged in the garden, or more disturbingly, wandering into the maze, where not only she encounters a huge python, but also where an obvious shape shifted Lucy appears as Frank who asks her if she wants the same he gave to the "bitch" (Una the senator's wife) then morphs into an attack dog...Frank pulls her thru the maze, but after struggling for a bit, she never asks him what is going on...

4. Perhaps the most important issue is when Frank and Emma are driving away in the Senator's car with Divina in the back seat when the long-haired man appears and is clearly seen thru the windshield as being hit by the car, yet when they get out to check on him, its Lucy lying in the pool of blood. When Frank cuts Emma off by saying "she's not dead, she never will be"...Emma never questions why, never asks Frank for an explanation, never asks why its Lucy lying there and not the long haired man..

Its obvious that Frank was protecting Emma against Lucy, that it was personal and meant to be kept that way, but there were too many odd happenings for her character to just accept and not question...

Then in Saturn Dreaming of Mercury, after all of the bizarre and unworldly things Emma was exposed to in Antipas, she does not see the shifting of evil personified by Lucas, Lucy, etc in the bedroom window just prior to the explosion...

just putting this out there for discussion...

4th Horseman...

[Guest ___ L@the_of_Heaven___]

Having re-watched Antipas recently, i was wondering if any of you picked up on this as well...

First of all, we have the whole enchilada of Frank requesting that Emma be removed from this case for no real apparent reason (at least to Emma)..Frank never really reveals to her just why (obviously to protect her) he asks MacClaren to hand the case over to him...

2. The scene at the motel post-succibus - she pauses and looks around the room, noticing Frank's condition, (agitation, sweating) etc, and the condition of the room, yet she never asks him what is going on..

3. The entire chase scene with Lucy as the long-haired man, finding the senator hanged in the garden, or more disturbingly, wandering into the maze, where not only she encounters a huge python, but also where an obvious shape shifted Lucy appears as Frank who asks her if she wants the same he gave to the "bitch" (Una the senator's wife) then morphs into an attack dog...Frank pulls her thru the maze, but after struggling for a bit, she never asks him what is going on...

4. Perhaps the most important issue is when Frank and Emma are driving away in the Senator's car with Divina in the back seat when the long-haired man appears and is clearly seen thru the windshield as being hit by the car, yet when they get out to check on him, its Lucy lying in the pool of blood. When Frank cuts Emma off by saying "she's not dead, she never will be"...Emma never questions why, never asks Frank for an explanation, never asks why its Lucy lying there and not the long haired man..

Its obvious that Frank was protecting Emma against Lucy, that it was personal and meant to be kept that way, but there were too many odd happenings for her character to just accept and not question...

Then in Saturn Dreaming of Mercury, after all of the bizarre and unworldly things Emma was exposed to in Antipas, she does not see the shifting of evil personified by Lucas, Lucy, etc in the bedroom window just prior to the explosion...

just putting this out there for discussion...

4th Horseman...

Shows you how TOTALLY DAMN COOL my sweet Emma is...; doesn't hafta ask anybody anything... Matter of fact, my woman is SO cool that when sheep go to sleep they count HER...

And, in SDoM I think the primary 'spiritual' connection, directed Evil, and history is with Frank; regardless of what she has 'seen' this still does not bring her anywhere near the 'intimacy' that Frank has with The Evil One...

But, quite valid observations though...

[Viivi]

An excellent post, 4H, as usual. I've never really thought about those things you mentioned, so I guess I'm gonna have to re-watch the ep tonight and get back on this later.

A minor thing, though, that came to mind.. You wrote:

(...)wandering into the maze, where not only she encounters a huge python, but also where an obvious shape shifted Lucy appears as Frank who asks her if she wants the same he gave to the "bitch" (Una the senator's wife) then morphs into an attack dog...

I've always thought that the lines that the "fake Frank" says to Emma refer to the assumed intercourse between Lucy and Frank in the motel room. Later it was claimed that Frank had raped Lucy. Remember, Emma does not realise right away that it's not the real Frank that's threatening her there.

Btw, that particular moment in the maze is one of the scariest in that episode, IMO, even though we know almost immediately that it's not the real Frank. It's just so shocking that evil appears in front of us disguised as Frank who we all love and respect so much.

[4th Horseman]

An excellent post, 4H, as usual. I've never really thought about those things you mentioned, so I guess I'm gonna have to re-watch the ep tonight and get back on this later.

A minor thing, though, that came to mind.. You wrote:

I've always thought that the lines that the "fake Frank" says to Emma refer to the assumed intercourse between Lucy and Frank in the motel room. Later it was claimed that Frank had raped Lucy. Remember, Emma does not realise right away that it's not the real Frank that's threatening her there.

Btw, that particular moment in the maze is one of the scariest in that episode, IMO, even though we know almost immediately that it's not the real Frank. It's just so shocking that evil appears in front of us disguised as Frank who we all love and respect so much.

DBSD - HOW DARE YOU CORRECT THE GREAT 4TH HORSEMAN... lol..

yeah, in looking back, i would have to say your interpretation is correct...i had so many things going thru my mind that i guess i got this confused with what it really meant...i stand corrected...now that i re-read my post, the Una reference doesn't make sense....

origionally, as stated, this isnt one of my better posts, in watching Antipas, i just thought that with all the bizarre things that happened, Frank morphing into a dog, the snake suddenly wrapping itself around Emmas feet, and also but most importantly, where he tells Emma that Lucy isn't dead and she never will be, i think i would have stepped back a bit and began to ask some questions about just what it is that Frank is dealing with...

also, Frank claims he never touched Lucy Butler when shown the pictures of bruises around her throat, yet he clearly is seen strangling the succibus just prior to Emma's arrival, so is this a script error? Lucy does not change her appearance until after several very loud and demonstrative groans of pleasure.

4th

[Viivi]

also, Frank claims he never touched Lucy Butler when shown the pictures of bruises around her throat, yet he clearly is seen strangling the succibus just prior to Emma's arrival, so is this a script error? Lucy does not change her appearance until after several very loud and demonstrative groans of pleasure.

4th

I have to admit I've always been a bit confused about this whole bedroom scene between Frank and Lucy. At first I thought it must be a dream, but that wouldn't explain the bruises on Frank's wrist (in addition to the bruises on Lucy's neck, but her neck, IMO, is not that important here since she can obviously make herself look any way she wants to). It's strange that Frank does notice the bruises he has but he never seems to really think about where they would have come from in case he hadn't had that encounter with Lucy. Yes, I'm confused.. and more than just a bit!

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

Interesting points. This makes me want to watch Antipas yet again. One thing that I can say though is that this episode was packed with action and a pretty complicated story, and it's possible that some of the explanation of these things, and possibly dialogue between Frank and Emma were simply too much to scrunch into a 45 minute time slot. Who knows, it's possible that such scenes were written into the original script and even filmed, and had to be edited out due to time restraints. Just a guess though.

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

Shows you how TOTALLY DAMN COOL my sweet Emma is...; doesn't hafta ask anybody anything... Matter of fact, my woman is SO cool that when sheep go to sleep they count HER...

And, in SDoM I think the primary 'spiritual' connection, directed Evil, and history is with Frank; regardless of what she has 'seen' this still does not bring her anywhere near the 'intimacy' that Frank has with The Evil One...

But, quite valid observations though...

Yes, I agree, I think in Saturn Dreaming of Mercury they are intending to show that Frank and Jordan have

"the gift", and Emma does not. One thing to keep in mind is that many times we are discussing different episodes by different writers, and this can be the cause of inconsistencies. We also have to keep in mind that, when writing these scripts, the people writting them are probably not envisioning people like us watching the episodes multiple times and dissecting and critiquing them. In an earlier post I had a few issues with Antipas as well, but as I mentioned at the time, it wasn't enough to detract from how great the episode is overall. I think one of my concerns was how long it took for Lucy to get the button off of Saxum's shirt. If you consider the time it took for Una to walk across the property, through the house and into the room to catch Lucy in her shenanigans, she would have had enough time to get all of the buttons off his shirt. Like I said though, this is one of those things that either does not occur to the writers, or that they don't expect the viewers to think about. I can say that I saw the episode a few times before this point started to bother me.

[Viivi]

I think one of my concerns was how long it took for Lucy to get the button off of Saxum's shirt. If you consider the time it took for Una to walk across the property, through the house and into the room to catch Lucy in her shenanigans, she would have had enough time to get all of the buttons off his shirt. Like I said though, this is one of those things that either does not occur to the writers, or that they don't expect the viewers to think about. I can say that I saw the episode a few times before this point started to bother me.

Maybe it was Lucy's way to tease Mr Saxum, and torment Mrs Saxum?

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

Maybe it was Lucy's way to tease Mr Saxum, and torment Mrs Saxum?

I agree, this was definitely her objective, but the reaction of Mr Saxum doesn't really match the time line. He kind of acts casual after the incident, and like he has no idea what Una's problem was when she comes bursting in. Based on the actual amount of time that it would have taken from the time Una sees them to the time she walks to the house and then through the house, I think even the unsuspecting Mr. Saxum would be starting to think "Hey, Lucy, what's the deal with this button" and plucked it off himself. Unless, of course, he was enjoying the moment, in which case, he would have acted differently when Una arrived.

[Guest gmcp]

I think there comes a point when enough weird stuff happens that you just begin to accept things.

In the hotel room, I think Emma didn't have time to really question the scene because Frank asked her what she was doing here, and she said he called him. That shifted focueses to the new murder. I think once that happens, Emma realizes she's in over her head and had better trust Frank's judgement.

I really love that episode just because it's so eerie and kniving. Frank has Lucy figured out, and Lucy is no longer shy about who she really is. Gerat stuff.