MilleniuM Uncensored

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Here i am home sick. May have the flu, so i have been reading the MilleniuM Abyss website. THen i start to think what if FOX wasnt so uptight and let them produce what the writers wanted like "Fallen Angels" about an exorcism. FOX network said no to it because of the violence. Would a more grittier and violent MilleniuM help the series? On todays TV like The Shield....Nip/Tuck.....House M.D....CSI....Criminal Minds have covered strange and bizarre stories that where considered taboo some years ago. Could a unrestricted MilleniuM could of lengthen the series. Who here would of love to hear Frank Black cuss?

MilleniuM was a ground breaking series to begin with. ALot of viewers had a hard time watching the series as it was. A friend of mine borrowed Season One and told me certain episodes like Pilot...Gehenna...Thin White Line...Lamentation and Sacrement bothered and spooked him. Like i said before, what if this series was more violent and even showed brief nudity? Would this change things for the series?

[4th Horseman]

showed brief nudity?

Joe...Loin Like a Hunting Flame was pretty provocative....not only for the partial nudity, but for the issues (swingers, threesomes "I want both of you", etc)...and how could the show have been any more violent than in the first season with the body on fire and head in a bag inside a coffin in the Pilot, the dismembered bodies of Dead Letters, and the forced drinking of blood in "Weeds"...how much more gratutious would you have liked to have seen MillenniuM?....a fully "uncensored" series would have required it to be on HBO or Cinemax for the most part...

p.s. - hope you get to feeling better soon...

4th Horseman..

[HighPlainsDrifter]

its not that i want to see nudity and more violence, i am refering to the writers how the network squashed some of their stories. Your right alot of the episodes where quite provocative but what if they pushed the envolope even more further. would it change the scope of things for MM or even its chracters?

[4th Horseman]

its not that i want to see nudity and more violence, i am refering to the writers how the network squashed some of their stories. Your right alot of the episodes where quite provocative but what if they pushed the envolope even more further. would it change the scope of things for MM or even its chracters?

Joe...without a doubt, today, there is a greater degree of tolerance for the "provocative"....if made today, absolutely, the writers would have far more leeway than 9 years ago...however, pushing the envelope further (in particular the nudity issue) i dont see as effectuating anything more than a concession to "shock value", further diluting the core issues of the show.

4th Horseman..

[HighPlainsDrifter]

my idea for the post is in to regarding how some of the writers felt restricted. My thoughts centered around "what if" they had no restictions. What kind of stories would we have seen? would it help the ratings?

like i said before MM was way before its time. Just think if they where able to tackle tuff subjects, i know they have but what if FOX let them air the stories they truly wanted

[Guest ZeusFaber]

I think you're exaggerating the situation with regard to writers feeling restricted. This is the exception rather than the rule. For the most part, they were able to come up with what they like, and Chris Carter pretty much had carte blanch back with the pilot.

Restrictions in terms of censors for langauge, sex and violence are par for the course on network television. Millennium was able to deliver quality shows that delivered in terms of horror and (to an extent) violence, and I don't think it was unduly restricted in these terms.

Allowing the apparent exorcism episode to go ahead would not have improved ratings, as far as I can see. Having Frank using foul language wouldn't have either. A bit of sex and nudity might have, as we all know the lowest common denominator sells, but all of this would just have cheapened the show IMO, and wouldn't have added much (if anything) to its lifespan.

[Guest SouthernCelt]

I think the show struck about the best balance they could on depiction vs implication of horror, violence and sex. In another thread where the subject of incorporating more real world politics into the MM mytharc was discussed, it was pointed out that inclusion of such might expand the plotlines but might be rejected by a lot of potential MM fans. I think the same is true of all these plot elements.

I don't know that a bit more sex and violence would have necessarily cheapened the show, that is, taken significantly away from an otherwise excellent story, but things like that have a way of snowballing via the old adage 'if a little is good, a lot would be better' and we could have ended up with a whole series that was nothing more than a "demonic chicks gone wild" video.

[4th Horseman]

I think you're exaggerating the situation with regard to writers feeling restricted. This is the exception rather than the rule. For the most part, they were able to come up with what they like, and Chris Carter pretty much had carte blanch back with the pilot.

Restrictions in terms of censors for langauge, sex and violence are par for the course on network television. Millennium was able to deliver quality shows that delivered in terms of horror and (to an extent) violence, and I don't think it was unduly restricted in these terms.

Allowing the apparent exorcism episode to go ahead would not have improved ratings, as far as I can see. Having Frank using foul language wouldn't have either. A bit of sex and nudity might have, as we all know the lowest common denominator sells, but all of this would just have cheapened the show IMO, and wouldn't have added much (if anything) to its lifespan.

ZF - once again, a stellar post...if i remember correctly, the quote at the beginning of "Thirteen Years Later" (Rev. M. Goodman) was a credit to a Fox censor named Morry Goodman who gave the writers nearly carte blanch in depicting the gore, violence and sexual situations that pertained to the show...so it appears that at least in S3, the writers were given every opportunity to expand on the previous 2 season's efforts. As i stated before, and Joe, i think you are missing the point here, how much more of the envelope needs pushing..you still have not clearly stated what you would like to see...more violence? what and how? more nudity? where and whom and when? would seeing a naked Lucy on top of Frank in Antipas ramp up the ratings? Sure...but would it add to the story line or just be a "trick pony"...you're watching too much 6 Feet Under, Carnivale, and Deadwood my good friend...sometimes "implied" violence, sex, etc is far more effective than seeing it first hand, just look at how sucessful Twilight Zone and shows that relied on the psychological issues of said components have been...i have to agree completely with ZF on this one...

4th Horseman...

[Raven Wolf]

Joe, let me say first off that I understand what you are saying here.

Here's my take on it.

When the series started, it was because it was SO violent, compared to other things out there, that thew some people and turned them off of watching it. What I find interesting is that the very people who were (& still are) disturbed by and complaining about the vilolence of this show are able to watch the nightly news, washing dishes and fussing at their kids, while the newcaster is yelling (since people keep the volume up too high) about people getting their heads chopped off, children being raped and murdered, and horrible 12 car pile ups on Interstate 85 where a man, his wife, and their 3 kids just died in a fire filled car wreck with a Mac truck... And never even think about what is being said.

Interesting, huh?

Anyway.... Here is my POV of why Millennium died. When it started, it was gritty. Raw. Chris Carter was inspired by Se7en....obviously... , and he wanted to show what that movie did. That there are evil people out there, and there are not always happy endings. Season 2....though I loved it for the spiritual side, also was where the series began to lose something. In an effort to be "politicaly correct", we can see that the violence softened down. There was more humor thrown in, and the *edge* was softened.

Now, I don't think hearing Frank saying "f*uck" all the time would have really helped. You see, Frank was the hero...and, heros in stories are set apart, as a symbol for what we should be aspiring to. (not to get into religion here, but this is just an example) Like the way Christians are taught to be "Christlike", or "Godlike". No one expects anyone to behave like GOD....but it's just that there is a really nice example to remind you to try to do the right thing. I think they had Frank cussing just the right amount. When he DID raise his voice, or say "What the hell kind of point is that???" ("Walkabout") it stood OUT so much that it caught your attention.

As for "going farter"....as Joe was saying "What if...?"..... I actually think it might have done some good. Like I said, during season 2, while they got more into the spiritual side....which was GOOD, because it was developing the caracter of Frank and his journey.....they should have kept on progressing with how the violence of the world was getting worse and worse. "2000" was a metaphore for me (please forgive spelling...I'm on a roll here)..... Though the Group thought that the world was going to end then..... Frank simply believed he couldn't just "sit back and hope for a happy ending". IF they had "pushed it" harder....been more daring and more raw...(since at least when Millennium played the violence thing, it was not JUST done for ratings) I think it would have at least been more authentic, and the ratings may have shown that. If you see what actually happened....when they tried to do what the public wanted, the show slowly died. Be TRUE to oneself....that's the way to go. If they wanted to play the whole "The Millennium Group is evil" card.... Then why not have THAT be part of the Journey Frank is on? It could have been that the group was not ALWAYS Roosters and Owls like they said....but that a corruption had infected it during the time Frank was a part of it...to show that he, as the hero, even has to cleanse the Group of the evil that threatens it.

If they were to have the violence be stronger in season 2....and go farter, it would only work if they continued to do it in the way of season 1....showing the humanity of the victims as well as the killers...balancing beauty and horror to draw people in.

Yeah... I see where you're coming from, Joe.

[ENGINECOMICS]

For me Millennium worked better by NOT showing gratuitous sex and violence. It was far more disturbing to let it play in your mind, of what was happening off screen. You can play with an audience like that, letting them bring more to the scene a lot more. And I think, if anything, more blood and guts would have turned more people off.

I remember Lance saying in an early interview that he would have liked to be able to use more language, in terms of swearing, which would be more realistic in certain circumstances. But in many ways it was the characters restraint that gave them nobility and allowed viewers to relate to them more, in a show that was for the time, very cutting edge and very disturbing to a lot of people.

If it was made today in a new series or film, i would like to see that restraint continuing. Its an element of what made the show special.