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What Episodes Made You Mad


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Guest ZeusFaber
As mentioned, I had to get used to the episode, and it was definitely different than any of the other episodes, including Owls and Roosters.

Although I have simmilar objections to "Owls" and "Roosters", I would add that at least I don't find them as toe-curling as "The Hand of Saint Sebastian". Likewise, "The Fourth Horseman" and "The Time is Now" were a little more palatable and easier to take than "Owls" and "Roosters", so you could say that I found the Wong's Group-centric episodes to improve as they went along (although still going in the wrong direction).

It's hard to explain, and I'm sure you would disagree, but I think many of the aspects of this episode, especially regarding the German characters were intended to spoof some of the movies and shows that came before it and create a light and "not so serious" feel to the episode.

I'm reminded of a quote from "Jose Chung's Doomsday Defence": 'his writings were so inept that they were mistaken for brilliant parodies...'

To me, the episode is just fun, and the hilarious exchanges between Roedecker and Peter, as well as the reactions of Frank and Peter towards the German detective, make this one of the most amusing episodes.

I respect your opinion, and wouldn't want to try and change it, but I can't regard "The Hand of Saint Sebastian" as a comedy episode in the way that "Jose Chung's Doomsday Defence", "Somehow, Satan Got Behind Me", and "Thirteen Years Later..." are down-the-line comedies. I don't want to be misunderstood into thinking that I object to the show doing comedy episodes, because I don't, and in fact enjoy Darin Morgan's contributions wholeheartedly. My distaste for "The Hand of Saint Sebastian" comes from an entirely different place.

Also, many would find it interesting that the Millennial Abyss, which is usually more harsh than the average viewer, and known for some scores that seem unfairly low, gave the episode a rare 5 out of 5.

For what it's worth, there are a number of scores on the Abyss which I don't agree with, for example "Dead Letters" (too high) and "Seven and One" (too low).

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Guest ZeusFaber
I have to conclude that where season 2 is concerned, fans either really, really like it or they really, really hate it. Doesn't seem to be much middle ground.

Although there are an awful lot of things I don't approve of with regard to S2 (the aforementioned changes to the Group's background, the rebranding of Frank's character and wardrobe, the mishandling of Catherine and her relationship with Frank, the toning down of the horror/violence, the arrival of Lara Means, the more paranormal-slanted stories, the cementing of Frank's facility as an inhereted extra-sensory perception...), that doesn't mean to say that there aren't still a number of good episodes to appreciate. "The Curse of Frank Black", "Jose Chung's Doomsday Defence", "The Mikado", "A Room With No View", "Somehow, Satan Got Behind Me" are all reasons why I wouldn't be without my S2 DVD set, despite my complaints about it's overarching directions and changes.

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
Although I have simmilar objections to "Owls" and "Roosters", I would add that at least I don't find them as toe-curling as "The Hand of Saint Sebastian". Likewise, "The Fourth Horseman" and "The Time is Now" were a little more palatable and easier to take than "Owls" and "Roosters", so you could say that I found the Wong's Group-centric episodes to improve as they went along (although still going in the wrong direction).

I'm reminded of a quote from "Jose Chung's Doomsday Defence": 'his writings were so inept that they were mistaken for brilliant parodies...'

I respect your opinion, and wouldn't want to try and change it, but I can't regard "The Hand of Saint Sebastian" as a comedy episode in the way that "Jose Chung's Doomsday Defence", "Somehow, Satan Got Behind Me", and "Thirteen Years Later..." are down-the-line comedies. I don't want to be misunderstood into thinking that I object to the show doing comedy episodes, because I don't, and in fact enjoy Darin Morgan's contributions wholeheartedly. My distaste for "The Hand of Saint Sebastian" comes from an entirely different place.

For what it's worth, there are a number of scores on the Abyss which I don't agree with, for example "Dead Letters" (too high) and "Seven and One" (too low).

Yes, I agree, THOSS was not intended to be a "comedy" episode, and as you say, just had several scenes that were intended to be funny and, in my opinion, succeeded in being some of the funniest of the series. I got a good chuckle out of your reference to the quote from Doomsday Defense. Like I mentioned earlier, it is hard to explain, but, as much as you dislike them, I think many of the things that bothered you were deliberately done by M & W. I don't mean deliberately done to annoy, but intended to amuse and in some cases intended to spoof. In your case, they failed on both counts and, in fact, on all counts. However, I think the proof that the style of this episode was intentional is in episodes from season 1. Even though you were not as fond as "Dead Letters" as I was, that episode, along with 52666 and "The Thin White Line" don't have any (or at least not many) of the ingredients that you find so distasteful from THOSS. As mentioned, I think M & W were going for something specific in THOSS and it simply had disasterous results from your point of view, while hitting the mark with me. I also agree that I find myself disagreeing with the Abyss on several episodes. The worst case of this is the 2 out of 5 they gave "Beware of the Dog", which I regard as a 5 star episode. Of course, being my polar opposite and not so much a fan of M & W, my guess is that you would probably lean towards the Abyss score on this one. :oneeyedwinK

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Guest ZeusFaber
I think many of the things that bothered you were deliberately done by M & W. I don't mean deliberately done to annoy, but intended to amuse and in some cases intended to spoof. In your case, they failed on both counts and, in fact, on all counts.

That's pretty much the size of it, yes. I'm sure we can agree to disagree.

I also agree that I find myself disagreeing with the Abyss on several episodes. The worst case of this is the 2 out of 5 they gave "Beware of the Dog", which I regard as a 5 star episode. Of course, being my polar opposite and not so much a fan of M & W, my guess is that you would probably lean towards the Abyss score on this one. :oneeyedwinK

I probably would go with the Abyss for "Beware of the Dog". I like some elements, such as the way Frank is all alone in a strange town and that the dogs look appropriately nasty, but there are far too many problems with the plot for me. It would probably be quite interesting to see what various fans think of those scores, whether they agree or disagree. In fact, I'm off to start a new thread on the matter in the Episdes Discussion forum -- see you there, perhaps.

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
That's pretty much the size of it, yes. I'm sure we can agree to disagree.

I probably would go with the Abyss for "Beware of the Dog". I like some elements, such as the way Frank is all alone in a strange town and that the dogs look appropriately nasty, but there are far too many problems with the plot for me. It would probably be quite interesting to see what various fans think of those scores, whether they agree or disagree. In fact, I'm off to start a new thread on the matter in the Episdes Discussion forum -- see you there, perhaps.

Yes, I will see you there, as long as you don't mind me supporting "Beware of the Dog" to the last. :oneeyedwinK

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Guest ZeusFaber

The first thread covering the first six episodes is up in the Episode Discussion Forum. Curious to see your votes. I'll follow it up with threads for the rest of the episodes if people take to it.

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It's funny, before I got my DVDs, I would've sworn that S2 was the best of the three. Now I think it's my least favorite. I don't necessarily mind the changes to the group, but the pacing of the exposition was completely wrong. IOW, the ratio of arc/non-arc stories was off. I too was upset at the changes in Frank, the near disappearence of Catherine, and as a result, the loss of Frank's duality, which is what made S1 so good. So yeah, I'm mad that the show I loved changed so dramatically in S2.

There are some really good episodes in S2, like "The Mikado", and "The Curse of Frank Black", but then there's "A Single Blade of Grass", and "Goodbye Charlie".

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Guest Prophecy

All those comedy episodes made me a bit mad and disappointed (like Jose Chung's "Doomsday Defense" and "...Thirteen Years Later"), because I just feel that comedy or humour don´t fit Millenniums dark world. It was allmost painful to watch.

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
All those comedy episodes made me a bit mad and disappointed (like Jose Chung's "Doomsday Defense" and "...Thirteen Years Later"), because I just feel that comedy or humour don´t fit Millenniums dark world. It was allmost painful to watch.

Wow, that is the first objection I can remember hearing regarding Doomsday Defense, but I understand where you are coming from. It took me a little while to get used to them, and as mentioned before, if you are tuning in for something dark and serious like Millennium, it can be a let down to get something light and funny. Personally, I enjoyed all of the lighter episodes, except for 13 Years, but like I said, an episode like Jose Chung can throw you for a loop if you are looking forward to classic, season 1 type Millennium. I remember turning on the episode and thinking "what the heck is this, did I turn to the wrong channel"? Then, as I continued to watch, I started to enjoy it, and as I have watched it on DVD, I have only grown to like it more and more.

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Guest Prophecy
Wow, that is the first objection I can remember hearing regarding Doomsday Defense, but I understand where you are coming from. It took me a little while to get used to them, and as mentioned before, if you are tuning in for something dark and serious like Millennium, it can be a let down to get something light and funny. Personally, I enjoyed all of the lighter episodes, except for 13 Years, but like I said, an episode like Jose Chung can throw you for a loop if you are looking forward to classic, season 1 type Millennium. I remember turning on the episode and thinking "what the heck is this, did I turn to the wrong channel"? Then, as I continued to watch, I started to enjoy it, and as I have watched it on DVD, I have only grown to like it more and more.

yeah, I understand your point too. It can take some time with some episodes. I hope that next time I´m watching season two, that episode would be better :yes:

Edited by Prophecy
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