What Episodes Made You Mad

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

Come on MIB... He really has some good points here. I mean, you actually DO disagree with every point he makes??? That's not fair I think because according to me MDM has had some serious thoughts about this. He makes, in my opinion, excellent points.

Yes, I disagree with every point. I will reread his post and get back with you on anything I don't disagree with. If you read back, you will see that I wrote a lengthy post with my point of view, so I don't think there is anything unfair about saying that I disagree. In fact, there are about 3, or maybe 4 people that I know of that do agree with most of his points. When my opinions are dubbed "wrong" it's time for me to move on to another string, so have at it and have fun.

[Guest ZeusFaber]

If I have to watch a movie, show or play just to find bugs in it than is just as well worth not watching it.

I don't think anyone is watching just to find bugs. It's one thing to nitpick inconsequential things like scientific inaccuracy or technobabble (the way people have with, say, "The Mikado"), and I agree that is pointless, but it's something entirely different to find fault with the dramatic structure and storytelling of a set of episodes because you're engaging with them critically.

I expect MDM is similar to me in that I went into S2 on the back of S1 with certain expectations of what the show and its characters had been established as over the course of 22 episodes, and was thus disappointed with how the show was remoulded and rebranded by M&W. Even those who wholeheartedly embrace those changes can't deny that there is a definite and measurable metamorphosis.

People like me and MDM aren't nitpicking and watching only to find bugs. We just had a very different critical reaction. For example, it would be like us accusing you of watching only to find bugs just because, as I'm guessing, you didn't embrace Season 3. But no, we simply have the individual reactions we have, and are able to articulate the reasons behind them.

[liberty]

No, no, no ! I love all three seasons including the third with " Goodbye to all this " being my favorite episode, the masterpiece of the third season I might add. You can criticize as much as you like, it is your right to do it. Who am I to tell you what to think ? Yet I find utterly ridiculous and unfair to reduce the work in the second season to a trash down just because your expectations were different. The season was of a very good quality in all his parts, scripting / producing / directing.

[4th Horseman]

No, no, no ! I love all three seasons including the third with " Goodbye to all this " being my favorite episode, the masterpiece of the third season I might add. You can criticize as much as you like, it is your right to do it. Who am I to tell you what to think ? Yet I find utterly ridiculous and unfair to reduce the work in the second season to a trash down just because your expectations were different. The season was of a very good quality in all his parts, scripting / producing / directing.

Well, once again, we are agreeing to disagree...this has been bantered about endlessly in many threads over and over and it NEVER changes...i dont see where ZF/MDM are reducing S2 to a "trash down" because of their preferences for S1...I too agree with both of their assessments and have since day one...if you go to the interviews at the end of S3 it is as clear as the nose on ones face that there was a tension concerning how to come out of S2 into S3 and bring back flow that was so consistent with "Lamentations", "PPTD", etc...there are portions of interviews where it is clearly noted that there was a general assessment that S2 went "off-track"...Carter had relinquished control to do the X-Files movie and entrusted M&W to continue in his vein...M&W even admitted that they were going to change the format of S2 and make it less "dark"....my entire assessment of S2 is it never hurts your acting career when you husband is one of the main writers for the show....carry on ZF/MDM....

4th Horseman...

[liberty]

Well then, how do you call MDM's rants against every piece of script written by M&W for the second season !? We could agree that the season got away from what Carter wanted, but this is not to say that every line in the scripts was flawed. It's ridiculous !

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

This is becoming a little skewed against Liberty now, because you have the 3 main opponents of season two sounding off, and no opposing view. I don't say this to step on anyone's toes, but lets be realistic. The posts that MDM has written may be the most scathing criticism that I think I have ever read about any show. I am not saying that he doesn't have the right to make them or that I don't respect his opinion, but to say he hasn't trashed S2 and Morgan and Wong is a little absurd. Like I said, everyone has a right to write what they want about any season, any episode, and any writer, but lets face it, when you go to a Millennium message board, with Millennium fans, and bash season 2 and bash Morgan and Wong, you are going to stir up some emotions, and I don't think anything Liberty has said in defense of S2 or M & W has been out of line. He was not saying that MDM was not articulate, but the simple fact is that what he said did amount to more or less saying S2 sucked. He sure wasn't saying it was good. Besides the harsh opinions of S2 and M & W, I think there have also been some unfounded claims and logic that doesn't quite make sense and is an unfair portrayal of Morgan and Wong.

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

Well then, how do you call MDM's rants against every piece of script written by M&W for the second season !? We could agree that the season got away from what Carter wanted, but this is not to say that every line in the scripts was flawed. It's ridiculous !

Again, not to step on any toes, but Liberty, you have run across what I refer to as the big 3 when it comes to disapproval of S2 and Morgan and Wong. I'm not saying they are wrong, just that their view, in my opinion, does not represent the majority. As we have seen in polls here, more people list S2 as their favorite than not. Heck, even the founder here, the Old Man, lists Morgan and Wong as his favorite writers. The Millennial Abyss, which is pretty well respected here, has given "The Hand of Saint Sebastian" a perfect 5 out of 5 and raves about it. What I am trying to say it, everyone has an opinion, and so far you have done a good job of discussing these matters and respecting these opinions. Don't get frustrated and think that you are alone in loving S2 or Morgan and Wong, because you are not.

[4th Horseman]

This is becoming a little skewed against Liberty now, because you have the 3 main opponents of season two sounding off, and no opposing view. I don't say this to step on anyone's toes, but lets be realistic. The posts that MDM has written may be the most scathing criticism that I think I have ever read about any show. I am not saying that he doesn't have the right to make them or that I don't respect his opinion, but to say he hasn't trashed S2 and Morgan and Wong is a little absurd. Like I said, everyone has a right to write what they want about any season, any episode, and any writer, but lets face it, when you go to a Millennium message board, with Millennium fans, and bash season 2 and bash Morgan and Wong, you are going to stir up some emotions, and I don't think anything Liberty has said in defense of S2 or M & W has been out of line. He was not saying that MDM was not articulate, but the simple fact is that what he said did amount to more or less saying S2 sucked. He sure wasn't saying it was good. Besides the harsh opinions of S2 and M & W, I think there have also been some unfounded claims and logic that doesn't quite make sense and is an unfair portrayal of Morgan and Wong.

MIB - i thought you said you were going away to post on other subjects?? LOL....i dont know why everytime these discussions come up that we get dragged back into them, kicking and screaming...its not about being against anyone, its not what has been said, its HOW its being said...this is clearly a case of those who have been here a while (ZF/MDM/yourself/me) who have grown comfortable, or OK, with assessments that are not looked upon favorably by everyone. Hell, ZF and i have disagreed about many things recently, which has led me to believe that he is not who he says he is....LOL...the X-Files discussion thread is a perfect example...we dont agree on certain episodes, but i dont get offended and call it ridiculous...he is entitled to his opinion, no matter how wrong it is...

Liberty...welcome to the board. I think its great to see such fire and passion in new members. I have NEVER run across ANYONE here who would ever intentionally insult your opinions or ideas, so relax and dont take it so personal...

4th Horseman...

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

MIB - i thought you said you were going away to post on other subjects?? LOL....i dont know why everytime these discussions come up that we get dragged back into them, kicking and screaming...its not about being against anyone, its not what has been said, its HOW its being said...this is clearly a case of those who have been here a while (ZF/MDM/yourself/me) who have grown comfortable, or OK, with assessments that are not looked upon favorably by everyone. Hell, ZF and i have disagreed about many things recently, which has led me to believe that he is not who he says he is....LOL...the X-Files discussion thread is a perfect example...we dont agree on certain episodes, but i dont get offended and call it ridiculous...he is entitled to his opinion, no matter how wrong it is...

Liberty...welcome to the board. I think its great to see such fire and passion in new members. I have NEVER run across ANYONE here who would ever intentionally insult your opinions or ideas, so relax and dont take it so personal...

4th Horseman...

Yes, this is a very complicated issue. I'm not saying that anyone here is inappropriate with their posts or opinions, but we are dealing with human nature, and certain posts are going to stir up emotions. These recent posts, while being totally within the rights of the people posting them, amount to the same thing as going to the Tom Cruise message board and saying that "Top Gun" was junk. Regardless of how you put it, and regardless of whether or not you are a fan of his other films, you are certainly going to get some objection. When such phrases as "season 2 sucks" and "trashing season 2" are used, it is splitting hairs to object to the use of such language after such a strong criticism of S2 and Morgan and Wong on every level. I don't think Liberty was saying that the post he was referring to was as simplistic as to say "S2 sucked", just that this is what it implied when all was said and done.

[4th Horseman]

Yes, this is a very complicated issue. I'm not saying that anyone here is inappropriate with their posts or opinions, but we are dealing with human nature, and certain posts are going to stir up emotions. These recent posts, while being totally within the rights of the people posting them, amount to the same thing as going to the Tom Cruise message board and saying that "Top Gun" was junk. Regardless of how you put it, and regardless of whether or not you are a fan of his other films, you are certainly going to get some objection. When such phrases as "season 2 sucks" and "trashing season 2" are used, it is splitting hairs to object to the use of such language after such a strong criticism of S2 and Morgan and Wong on every level. I don't think Liberty was saying that the post he was referring to was as simplistic as to say "S2 sucked", just that this is what it implied when all was said and done.

MIB...did i miss something?? i went back and re-read the posts from this thread and dont recall seeing where anyone directly stated that S2 "sucks"...maybe i overlooked it, however, your last sentence speaks volumes..."implied" is the key word...yes you can be articulate and eloquent and still get your point across...if you were to ask those of us for an overall assessment of S2, at least for me, i would have to say that i liked certain episodes, but i thought that the direction the show took was inappropriate, thats all. Not only that, but the attempt to "partner up" Frank with Lara never worked for me, hence the comment about it never hurts to have your husband be one of the main writers. I never cared for her acting, whether it be in S2 or in "The Field Where I Died" from the X-files. But, like a tired old dishrag, we continue to debate this issue...all i am saying is that when i first started here, i took any disagreement, no matter how well articulated, personally...its only through being here for almost 3 years and getting to know most of you here, that now if i say that i think that S8 of the X-files is more gratuitous and bloody than most other seasons, i dont get defensive when ZF or anyone else disagrees with me.....I see what I see thru my own eyes, interpret it based on personal experiences, prejudices, etc, and define the intent...if its different than yours or anyone elses, thats cool with me, and thats where we can come together and find out, rather paradoxically, just how different, yet similar we are...

4th Horseman..