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What Episodes Made You Mad


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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
Sorry, it's been a while. I intend to be quite blunt about what I think this time. Please understand that it is only because I care about this show so much.

You seem unable to accept that because I didn't think it was the best, and incredibly wonderful, that I don't like it at all. That's wrong, and I said as much before. I was disapointed with how it veered into mediocrity, and it's a genuine sadness because I certainly didn't want to see that happen, or see Morgan and Wong become so bitter about it all.

I like to think I make informed judgements. I examine the evidence and give my findings. You claim that Season Two has some kind of mandate, yet I have already discussed the reasons why this should be not be taken at face value. The media critics (and by this I mean critics from mainstream papers and magazines - not science fiction magazines), greeted Millennium's third season as a step in the right direction after the craziness of season two (there is some evidence of this on the Millennial Abyss I believe).

The series failed commercially, and Season Two performed worst of all, robbing the series of its Season One core base. This is not disputed by the writers - I don't understand why you are disputing it. Regardless of whether you liked S2 or not, it destablised the show by changing what the show was. The same critical sources I mentioned above, also made the point at the time of S3, that despite the better direction, it was not not winning back (note winning *back*) viewers to the series.

I wish to point out again, that as Zeus said, this is not a 'my season is better than your season' fight. My personal gripes about Season Two aside, it was the effect it had on the show as a whole, and a failure to build on some great promise that irked me most. The reletive success of each season is merely a tool to show the displeasure and the harm it caused to Millennium when Morgan and Wong changed it.

You say that Morgan and Wong had proved themselves capable to writing realism, evil etc. You mentioned 'The Thin White Line'? Is that supposed to be some sort of joke? That episode more than any really, demonstrated their inability to write on such themes. There is no sense of beastial rage, no sense of evil, because they humanise and sympathise with the enemy (hence the ending). They did the same thing in 'Beyond the Sea' in The X-Files. Great story there, but Boggs has no hint of evil about him, because theat is not what they are comfortable exploring.

I'm sorry, but I got into Millennium by absorbing the fierce world on S1. To then produce cartoon nazis (and I'm sorry again, but THOSS and Owls/Roosters are so far from being realistic...), it shook my faith in the show, because as Lance Henriksen himself put it 'This wasn't what I signed up for'.

As to S3 'easily' dealing with the plague... are you serious?! The majority of Season Two fans (Morgan and Wong included) decried them for how they fixed it. It has been a long, arduous struggle these years to convince people that they did indeed do a great job fixing and carrying on from what was (and this has been admitted!) made with the intention of being the end of the series.

On the subject of Darin Morgan - we really don't want to go down that road again. Just do a search, because we've covered him in great detail many times. Suffice to say, I consider him to be, like his brother, an interesting but self indulgent writer. He was mortified when 'Jose Chung's' was the lowest rated episode of the season (yes, that's right, it was the lowest ranked by the time it aired). But he shouldn't have expected anything more. His episodes are curiosities that like 'Thirteen Years...' and 'Omerta', are easier to watch now because we can skip to them on DVD. When the series was airing, people felt (justifiably in my opinion) that such episodes were an episode wasted, and they voted with their feet.

A quick search on the Internet should reveal (if they haven't been taken down by now), the interviews that Morgan and Wong gave at various stages of the show. They clearly describe their problems with Milennium after they leave (the first time) and revisit them just before they start season 2 (saying how they will do it differently). They are also on record as being mightily teed off with Millennium by the end of Season Two. I think they were proud of it, but had nothing to show for it. The season had bombed and the studio treated them like dirt for their failure. There also seems to be some bad blood between them and Carter now (it's never been adquately explained, but it seemed to brew from their second stint on The X-Files, and simmered away until the end of Millennium, when they parted ways with 1013.) They refused to be part of the S2 documentary, and the comments they made about Season 3 were very uncharitable (thus the reason presumably, why the writers felt no need to sugar coat their rebuttals in the S3 documentary).

As to Maher and Reindl... well again I disagree strongly. Maher and Renidl make extremely melodramtic episodes. This kind of thing never goes well with us Brits, and when it's done badly (as I believe it was), it just compounds the issue. I cannot stand 'Midnight of the Century' and 'Annamesis'. And again, I don't really want to go into this again, because it's all come up before.

I stand by my assertions that this show is about Frank Black and his inner and outer demons. To stray too far from that is to stray from the show's purpose. But his relationship with Peter and Peter's connection to the Group at large was a very significant thread in Season One. Chip J tries to pursue it in Season Two, but gets no help. Chip J's episodes show the Group terrorising Frank, using him and the extent to which Peter is going along with this, using Frank for his own advancement and fearing that Frank's failure will look bad for him as Patron.

We needed to see it through Frank's eyes, and Peter actions/reactions. We learned what kind of people the Group were through this kind of interaction. M+W spoil this carefully plotted thread by bringing it out into the open far too much. Instead of seeing Peter nervously conducting Frank to his Interview in 'Luminary' (a short scene which I could write a whole book about), they have scenes where Peter starts saying 'The Group is Good, we must do what they say' and then have later speeches on how he is dismayed at what he has done to Frank.

No, no, no! The whole reason for hiring a guy like Terry O Quinn is because you never know where you stand with him (or never should anyway). They did the exact same thing in Lost. He has bullt a career on playing 'Nice guys with an edge'. You should never really know where his loyalties lie, should have to delve and wonder. M+W split it up too cleanly, they ruin the conflict that S1 and Chip J episode Watts went through every time he was with Frank. In M+W episodes, Peter is one or the other, pro group or pro Frank. It's painful to watch sometimes (In TBATE for instance where he is pro frank at the kitchen meeting, and pro Group in the morning).

This is only one example (and I have a million more) of ways in which Morgan and Wong took and changed the show I knew and loved into something else. I'm not disputing that they were gifted science fiction writers, but they were not Gods and couldn't (and shouldn't have thought they could) go it alone. Maher and Reindl were practically first time writers (I rememebr they had very little experience indeed), and Darin Morgan by his own and others admission, did his own thing. They did not understand certain aspects of the show, they outright disagreed with some and cut them altogether or as much as they could.

I maintain that they had no business doing that. It was as Chip J mused, disrespectful to the fans of Millennium. I wanted to see them develop the show we had, not change it into a different one. And neither id the majority of the S1 and S3 writers, neither did the public by the ratings.

You love Season Two passionately. That's clear. But I love Millennium passionately. I could forgive all of the mistakes, all of the ratings drops, I could put it down to simply having different tastes to M+W. But their attitude in trying to kill the series - and they have said as much, so please don't waste my time by denying it - their petulance at taking their ball and going home, leaving the show for dead... how can you ask me to forgive that? How can you ask me to forgive taking a series with a definate direction and tone, and changing it over the objections of the S1 staff and S1 fans? And then to mock the S3 staff from afar...

I can't forgive them. I know they don't care....

That's the point.

I don't know if you are referring to me specifically, but I never made any claim that you didn't like every aspect of the show in S2. You mentioned liking an episode or two, and I acknowledge that. The difference is simply that you believe that it veered into mediocrity and I think it soared to greatness. The bottom line is that, as is your right, you wrote a long post that was more or less negative about Morgan and Wong and S2. People simply responded with a different opinion. I don't think anyone has questioned your right to feel this way.

You say that I regard S2 as some kind of mandate, but I'm not sure what you are implying by this. I loved season two, but have said many times that S1 was great as well, and that it is very close to S2, and that I loved S3 and it is growing on me more and more and closing the distance between itself and the other two seasons. No offense, but you continue to make claims that I don't believe, and then don't offer any quotes or statistics or provable facts to back them up. From what I read in the Abyss, they had only good things to say about S2. Here is what they wrote:

"When writers Glen Morgan and James Wong jointly took over the Executive Producer role for Millennium's second season quite a few changes were planned and subsequently enforced. Morgan and Wong quickly made efforts to deviate from the Serial Killer of the Week pattern, they complicated the yet unexplored history of the mysterious Millennium Group, they introduced a sense of humor to the series, and they brought religion and spirituality more prominently into the scripts.

Morgan and Wong's second season was immediately accused of subconsciously aping The X-Files, of deviating from Chris Carter's original vision for the series. Although these claims are not entirely unfounded, the show's new direction proved to be more of a blessing than a curse.

As the second season wore on, fans found themselves growing more attached to the revitalized Millennium while, at the same time, the diverse episode themes attracted new audience members. The show, week by week, became dramatically more complex and bravely more artistic. Millennium was continually reinventing itself. Glen Morgan and James Wong held nothing back as their scripts delved unabashedly into a world of demons, angels, dreams, visions, mythology, science, and the human spirit. Glen's brother, Darin Morgan, brought the show its first stand-out comedy episodes and it was clear that Millennium definitely had more than one facet to its complex nature.

Knowing the second season would be their, and possibly the show's, last, Morgan and Wong created a stunning two-part finale, a brilliant piece of television art that brought the show's world to a dramatic end."

No, my mention of the "Thin White Line" was not intended as "some kind of joke". I listed that as an example of a realistic writing style. I also made no claims that THOSS and Owls/Roosters were examples of hard core realism. Clearly you didn't like them, but more people I hear from like them than do not.

Again, you offer no concrete evidence about the fan core and ratings failures, but continue to stress these claims. I don't know how you can prove a statement that S2 caused the show to lose it's fan base from S1. I was simply saying that I have seen no evidence of this. I think this forum is a fair representation of the fan base, but you disagree. I mention the people I talked to in every day life as an example of the fan base, but you seem to disagree with this as well. You can say that S2 caused irreparable damage to the show, but I have seen no proof of that. All I see is it being the favorite here and the favorite among people I talk to elsewhere. If you insist on making claims that this is the case, maybe you should back them up with something solid. Also, what were the ratings of S2 compared to S1 and S3? I find it hard to believe that S3 was better than S2. If this IS the case, I stand corrected, but I can't believe that there is a huge difference percentage wise.

It is apparent that you have become offended and can't deal with a disagreement on S2. You trash almost every episode, as well as Morgan and Wong in endless diatribes, and then back peddle when someone disagrees and split hair about what was said. Obviously, your use of terms like "Is that some kind of joke" and "are you serious" and "don't waste my time", regarding my statements, are a condescending way of implying that I am wrong and in many cases you seem to be implying that I don't have the ability to grasp your concepts. This is not the case. I simply think they are wrong, no matter how you put them. I don't understand the need for you to come here and trash season 2 and Morgan and Wong and then expect not to be challenged in the least. This is unrealistic when you consider the overall approval of S2 on this forum. There are, if I remember correctly, threads where you can give reviews of seasons and episodes and not have these comments open to debate.

You say things like "I can't stand Midnight of the Century" and "Anamnesis", but then you say, but lets not get into that, which is the same thing as saying that you don't want to hear an opposing view. I find that overwhelming people loved the episode. I offer the Abyss as an example of this, as well as what I have read here and heard from fans of the show outside this forum, but this mystical fan base you speak of probably hated it as well.

I do think that the writers in S3 easily wrote their way out of S2. They said that the plague was contained. What is so complicated about that? I didn't have a particularly hard time believing this explanation. It is apparent that you are very bitter about S2 and the way Morgan and Wong handled it. Whether you want to admit it or not, you have a hard time with an opposing view. Maybe it would be best if I just used the ignore feature because when I see someone giving S2 and M & W the kind of beating you have, I am going to respond, because I don't agree with it, and all evidense I have seen shows that most other people don't. I don't know a single person in my personal life who was turned off to the series by S2. If anyone was turned off, it was by S3, and it had nothing to do with writting their way out of S2. I also see, by the scores that the Abyss seemed to like S2 just fine, and this forum seems to prefer it. I will be interested to see the ratings and evidense of this undefined "core fan base" you are referring to.

Again, you misrepresent Morgan and Wong and portray them as this evil duo, set out to destroy the show before they leave. What people I know think they did was left the show with a brilliant ending if it was not renewed for S3. Whether you want to admit it or not, you are implying that they specifically intended to kill the show so it could not continue before they abandoned it. In reality, they left the show in a state where the S3 writers went in a new direction and explained their way out of the direction of S2 in a single episode. I don't see them as struggling in episode after episode, trying to dig their way out. At the begginning of S3, Morgan and Wongs contract ended and Chris Carter took control of the show back.

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Guest ZeusFaber
From what I read in the Abyss, they had only good things to say about S2.

I think it needs to be pointed out that the Abyss is just one website representing one person's opinion. Granted, it's beautifully presented and is a wonderful online resource for information, but this doesn't make it a leading authority on the series. Its text and its episode ratings are just one opinion amongst a huge collection of others. Just because an episodes gets, say, 5 stars, or 1 star, doesn't really signify anything beyond the author's opinion.

but more people I hear from like them than do not.

As I mentioned a while back, I'm not sure how this is significant. Like I said, it's not an election or a contest. For example, more people watch American Idol than Battlestar Galactica. Does that mean it's better? Does that mean the former wins and the latter looses?

I don't know a single person in my personal life who was turned off to the series by S2.

Allow me to introduce myself...

Again, you misrepresent Morgan and Wong and portray them as this evil duo

I think evil duo is a bit harsh, but what MDM says about them and their actions is largely true. Of all the people involved in the show behind the scenes, they've been the most outspoken and critical of others. We all know how most of the crew felt about S2, yet people like Chris Carter are still very charitable and choose their words very carefully, and never openly criticize M&W to any strong degree. On the contrary, he goes out of his way to credit them and compliment them, and on issues where he disagrees with things they've done, he largely stays silent. Conversely, M&W have said some very harsh and unkind things about S3 and S1. They don't bite their tongue, they crticize. Same with The X-Files. They refused to participate in the DVD documentaries of MM. There's a definite difference in attitude you can see there.

Regardless of this, some people still love their work, and that's absolutely fine. Others, like me, MDM, and more than a few others, see it differently. Whichever side of the fence you sit on regarding that, you can't really deny that they have a certain... shall we say, attitude.

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  • Elders (Admins)

To all:

The discussion here has become quite passionate at times lately. That's not surprising as MM is exactly the kind of show that attracts intelligent and passionate people. The show's three seasons are diverse, for a lot of reasons (some of which we don't know about, e.g. Fox's input in each of the three seasons).

Obviously, it's important that people do feel able to express their opinions here but it has to be remembered that this is a contentious issue so it needs to be more carefully handled than most topics.

Libby

"Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape." Terry Pratchett

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
I think it needs to be pointed out that the Abyss is just one website representing one person's opinion. Granted, it's beautifully presented and is a wonderful online resource for information, but this doesn't make it a leading authority on the series. Its text and its episode ratings are just one opinion amongst a huge collection of others. Just because an episodes gets, say, 5 stars, or 1 star, doesn't really signify anything beyond the author's opinion.

As I mentioned a while back, I'm not sure how this is significant. Like I said, it's not an election or a contest. For example, more people watch American Idol than Battlestar Galactica. Does that mean it's better? Does that mean the former wins and the latter looses?

Allow me to introduce myself...

I think evil duo is a bit harsh, but what MDM says about them and their actions is largely true. Of all the people involved in the show behind the scenes, they've been the most outspoken and critical of others. We all know how most of the crew felt about S2, yet people like Chris Carter are still very charitable and choose their words very carefully, and never openly criticize M&W to any strong degree. On the contrary, he goes out of his way to credit them and compliment them, and on issues where he disagrees with things they've done, he largely stays silent. Conversely, M&W have said some very harsh and unkind things about S3 and S1. They don't bite their tongue, they crticize. Same with The X-Files. They refused to participate in the DVD documentaries of MM. There's a definite difference in attitude you can see there.

Regardless of this, some people still love their work, and that's absolutely fine. Others, like me, MDM, and more than a few others, see it differently. Whichever side of the fence you sit on regarding that, you can't really deny that they have a certain... shall we say, attitude.

When I say personal life, I am referring to people I know personally outside this board. When S2 is portrayed overall as an atrocity and I think it is relevant to point out that the majority of the people I know of liked it. The Abyss is connected to this web page and is something that most here are familiar with and can easily access. This is why I used it as an example of a single differing opinion. I consider it to be a reference that is regarded very highly here. People are welcome to discard this opinion if they choose.

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss

PS, all of these claims are made about quotes from Morgan and Wong and quotes from other writers. Is it too much to ask to supply these quotes when these claims are made? For example, we have a post that says Morgan and Wong were trying to "kill" the show and say as much. I would be interested in reading the quote where they say that they were trying to kill the show. We are also seeing all of these claims about the ratings, but never a shred of information or evidence. Maybe these ratings figures could be provided in the future. Without an in depth representation of these ratings, episode by episode, no claims can be made about why the ratings figures did what they did. It's easy to say "this guy said this" and "this guy said that" if you don't have to present the quote for others to interpret. I think it's ridiculous to make all of the claims that are made and not to provide these quotes in context and with the original wording of the people saying them.

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PS, all of these claims are made about quotes from Morgan and Wong and quotes from other writers. Is it too much to ask to supply these quotes when these claims are made? For example, we have a post that says Morgan and Wong were trying to "kill" the show and say as much. I would be interested in reading the quote where they say that they were trying to kill the show. We are also seeing all of these claims about the ratings, but never a shred of information or evidence. Maybe these ratings figures could be provided in the future. Without an in depth representation of these ratings, episode by episode, no claims can be made about why the ratings figures did what they did. It's easy to say "this guy said this" and "this guy said that" if you don't have to present the quote for others to interpret. I think it's ridiculous to make all of the claims that are made and not to provide these quotes in context and with the original wording of the people saying them.

i totally agree with Bliss

i know alot of you fans didnt like the M&W inspired epsiodes of Season 2, and this is one of the most debateable issues on this board.

lets be sure and be responsible with your quotes

Bliss, are you watching the All-Star game tonite? i imagine 4thhorseman might

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
i totally agree with Bliss

i know alot of you fans didnt like the M&W inspired epsiodes of Season 2, and this is one of the most debateable issues on this board.

lets be sure and be responsible with your quotes

Bliss, are you watching the All-Star game tonite? i imagine 4thhorseman might

Yes, I will watch as always, although I prefer the regular season games. I kind of enjoy the home run derby the night before, but somehow I missed it this year. :cry:

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Yes, I will watch as always, although I prefer the regular season games. I kind of enjoy the home run derby the night before, but somehow I missed it this year. :cry:

Home Run Derby was pretty fun last night. Vlad from the Angels won but Pujols got close in the last round

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