Confusion with transcript

[4th Horseman]

IMHO you guys are seeing things that are not there.

If you remember the scene, Frank arrives late and approaches Catherine (already seated) and moves to sit next to her on Catherines right hand side, thats when the "rude" woman takes the open seat next to Catherine that she had saved for Frank...in the seat on the other side (left hand side) of Catherine there is another empty seat, however, there is a coat, package, etc that would indicate the seat was already taken. That's why Frank does not try to sit in that particular seat, nor does Catherine offer...Frank then says "I'll see you afterwards" then goes to sit a few rows back. What we see next is Frank exchanging greetings to some of the people sitting around him, then he happens to glance at where Catherine is sitting..The next scene is the gentleman, squeezing down the row in front of the seats, walking directly in front of Catherine and then sitting next to her in the seat directly to her left..Thats the seat that already had an undetermined item left in it to indicate occupancy ...There is no validation to the "rude" guy theory as he sits next to Catherine AFTER Frank has already had to find another seat due to the "rude" woman taking the origional seat...This is when Catherine looks back at Frank with a very seemingly uneasy look on her face....

for whatever reason this sequence was put into MOTC is unknown. Frankly, i really dont care. I knew it was going against the grain to consider as Libby says so eloquently " maybe M&W wanted to introduce the idea that the separation between Frank and Catherine had become deeper than just Catherine wanting time to think.Catherine, post MOTC, never indicated that she loved anyone but Frank, and i seriously doubt that she was ever involved in questionable activities. In fact, her continued struggle to understand what the Group and Frank's gift were all about speak volumes of her devotion and love for Frank...

DBSD - I guess it comes down to interpretation. You and I share a common viewpoint. It would have been just as easy to have had them sit together at this "magical time of the year" (Christmas), yet the choice was made to implicate a continued seperation, metaphorically so, as exemplified by the seating fiasco. The only rational reason i can come up with is that from where Frank wound up sitting, it allowed him unfettered access to the "messenger" in the church courtyard...

i dont know, i am just drawing straws here...

again, i seriously doubt that Catherine was involved with anyone but Frank, its only that this particular sequence of events lends itself to either warranted or unwarranted interpretation...

Moriarty says:

IMHO you guys are seeing things that are not there.

If i were a bettin' man, my money would be on you...However, why spark the embers of controversy unless that was your intent...

4th Horseman...

[Guest Moriarty]

I will have to rewatch the scene. But once again, if it was implied that Catherine had a thing with another man it is just bad writing. I am not very fond of season 2 writing (read M&W). If you are right about this thing my opinion of S2 will just get lower. Let you know my conclusions after next weekend...

[4th Horseman]

I will have to rewatch the scene. But once again, if it was implied that Catherine had a thing with another man it is just bad writing. I am not very fond of season 2 writing (read M&W). If you are right about this thing my opinion of S2 will just get lower. Let you know my conclusions after next weekend...

Moriarty...again, i am not implying that M&W were hinting at anything...heres what i find disturbing about the whole thing...

The look that Frank has when he sees the gentleman sit next to Catherine, and the look she has on her face when she looks back to see Frank's reaction...why even include that? Why dont we see another female sit next to Catherine instead of an unknown gentleman? For me, its all in the way Catherine looks back at Frank..Frank's attention is most certainly riveted on this event and Catherine's purposeful look back at Frank just leave me with a very uneasy feeling. I dont believe that if another female had sat next to her we would even be talking about this....My universe concerning this epi revolves around "THE LOOK"...LOL...we also see Catherine talking to the same guy outside the church after the play, and that also is a bit disconcerting...I find the whole possibility of an involvement with someone other than Frank most repugnant, yet why would such an innocent set of events be fraught with cracks of nefarious possibilities? As i have said, it would have been just as easy for the two of them to have sat together to share and enjoy Jordan's participation in her school play, BUT NO!!!...the metaphorical continuation of their seperation, along with the question of who the unknown man is leaves a lot to be considered...is it just a coincidence? perhaps...and as you say, maybe i and a few others are reading a bit too much into it, but i have always found this particular sequence disturbing from the very first time i watched MOTC...

4th Horseman...

[Viivi]

I’m still with 4H on this; why include the mysterious man to the scene at all, if it wasn’t to hint that the relationship between Frank and Catherine had gone even worse than anyone had realised?

Btw, speaking of seeing things that are not there; I never said that Catherine would have done something highly inappropriate. Is dating someone during separation a very bad thing? She loved Frank, which is obvious all the time, throughout the series.

[Guest ein042]

I will have to rewatch the scene. But once again, if it was implied that Catherine had a thing with another man it is just bad writing. I am not very fond of season 2 writing (read M&W). If you are right about this thing my opinion of S2 will just get lower. Let you know my conclusions after next weekend...

It's still one of my favorite episodes. If Catherine wants a normal healthy life for Jordan that's natural. As much as she loves Frank, and she has no intention in this episode of keeping Frank from Jordan, she was clearly upset by her daughter having visions of her dead grandmother and that angel drawing.

whether or not she sees herself in a new relationship for Jordan's sake I don't see that as out of character for Catherine. She confronts Frank honestly with her fears.

I seriously doubt she is having an affair but if she has a male friend to confide in as Frank has Lara why not.

I realise Lara isn't a good argument as the bias toward M&W includes her and the direction the show took.

I still think Catherine is behaving as her character always has and this may have come about regardless who was doing the writing.

Just my 2 cents.

[4th Horseman]

It's still one of my favorite episodes. If Catherine wants a normal healthy life for Jordan that's natural. As much as she loves Frank, and she has no intention in this episode of keeping Frank from Jordan, she was clearly upset by her daughter having visions of her dead grandmother and that angel drawing.

whether or not she sees herself in a new relationship for Jordan's sake I don't see that as out of character for Catherine. She confronts Frank honestly with her fears.

I seriously doubt she is having an affair but if she has a male friend to confide in as Frank has Lara why not.

I realise Lara isn't a good argument as the bias toward M&W includes her and the direction the show took.

I still think Catherine is behaving as her character always has and this may have come about regardless who was doing the writing.

Just my 2 cents.

I had a feeling that this issue would draw and quarter opinions at extreme ends of the spectrum...Ein042 - MOTC has remained one of my favorites as well. Its a great "feel-good" episode and the role Darrin McGavin plays is much more poignant since his death...this seems to be a classic "you say potatoe, i say potato, you say tomatoe, i say tomato" occurence...The point i am trying to make is that when more than one person interprets a series of events in a very similar manner but with polar opposite viewpoints than others, then there are questions concerning what was being communicated. Remember, Catherine never offers to get up and move to sit by Frank, opting to remain where she sat, when there were empty seats where Frank wound up sitting. Also if the gentleman sitting next to her was nothing more than coincidence, then why would she bother looking back to see if Frank was looking? And why would Frank take such particular notice? These are actions that, if not intended to have meaning, then should never have been introduced into the episode...thats what i am trying to say..

4th Horseman..

[Guest ein042]

I had a feeling that this issue would draw and quarter opinions at extreme ends of the spectrum...Ein042 - MOTC has remained one of my favorites as well. Its a great "feel-good" episode and the role Darrin McGavin plays is much more poignant since his death...this seems to be a classic "you say potatoe, i say potato, you say tomatoe, i say tomato" occurence...The point i am trying to make is that when more than one person interprets a series of events in a very similar manner but with polar opposite viewpoints than others, then there are questions concerning what was being communicated. Remember, Catherine never offers to get up and move to sit by Frank, opting to remain where she sat, when there were empty seats where Frank wound up sitting. Also if the gentleman sitting next to her was nothing more than coincidence, then why would she bother looking back to see if Frank was looking? And why would Frank take such particular notice? These are actions that, if not intended to have meaning, then should never have been introduced into the episode...thats what i am trying to say..

4th Horseman..

Nothing escapes the eye of the Fourth Horseman, so I watched again to be sure that my original memory of it as, just the church being full and a stranger saving a seat, wasn’t what actually happened.

Sure enough the camera zooms on the package with the coat over it. So In life what could be coincidence, in film is meaningful. The point is reinforced with Frank’s reaction to the man in question.

The effect emphasizes the fact Frank and Catherine are being drawn apart. In my opinion by the same thing that alienated his own parents. One sees and the other is terrified by that vision.

I still argue the charge that it is bad writing, which is why I piped up in the first place. Instead I think you have found another allegory, typical of season 2 that appeals to some of us.

I also think it represents more of a possibility than what is actually happening. At least as Frank saw it.

[4th Horseman]

Nothing escapes the eye of the Fourth Horseman, so I watched again to be sure that my original memory of it as, just the church being full and a stranger saving a seat, wasn't what actually happened.

Sure enough the camera zooms on the package with the coat over it. So In life what could be coincidence, in film is meaningful. The point is reinforced with Frank's reaction to the man in question.

The effect emphasizes the fact Frank and Catherine are being drawn apart. In my opinion by the same thing that alienated his own parents. One sees and the other is terrified by that vision.

I still argue the charge that it is bad writing, which is why I piped up in the first place. Instead I think you have found another allegory, typical of season 2 that appeals to some of us.

I also think it represents more of a possibility than what is actually happening. At least as Frank saw it.

Ein - i tend to agree with your assessment of poor script writing...am glad that you detected those very same things that have led to these assumptions...the biggest questions i have are that if you knew (as Catherine most certainly did) that Frank was going to attend Jordan's play, dont you think she would have saved him a seat? Its obvious she did not, because the woman dives in at the last minute and takes the one empty seat to Catherine's right. Yet, Catherine doesnt protest "I'm sorry, that seat is taken"...all she can muster is a look of irritation..now if the seat w/the package and the coat were put there by a complete stranger, shouldn't Catherine have gotten up to go sit next to Frank instead of just remaining between two strangers?? I mean, come on, for God's sakes, isn't it almost a certainty, that, even if seperated, (unless there is an unbridled amount of hatred between the two, and in Catherine and Frank's case, that is most certainly not true), parents would make every attempt to sit together at their childs Christmas program?? Putting aside differences at this particular time of year..even if it was only symbolic, as a child, it would be far more comforting to see both of your parents sitting together than to have to strain to find them individually. This would only reinforce the effect of the seperation..To a child's mind, full of hope, and knowing that Jordan was mature enough to understand mom and dad didnt live together anymore, regardless of the reasons, it would be devestating...

so by deduction, we can assume that Catherine knew the gentleman who sat next to her, reinforced by the fact we see her talking to him on the steps of the church after the paegent...whether or not it was intended to mean anything, WHO KNOWS!!!! But it most certainly is fodder for discussion...

now the question is, had Frank been there a split second earlier to grab the one seat next to Catherine, then i guess this whole discussion would be moot...

i can only explain it as fortune presents gifts not according to the book...

4th Horseman..

4th Horseman...

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

The subtitles on my DVD (I've got Region 2 DVD's) say "them".

I don't think it would be strange; maybe Ann and Dave Watkins have a child or children, and the situation in their family might be similar to the situation in the Black family: the father has moved out. And Catherine and Jordan are going to move in with Ann and the kid/kids. If Catherine was going to move in with Dave Watkins, THAT would be strange, because one would assume that there should be at least some kind of serious discussion about it between Frank and Catherine at some point in the series.

However, it is implied that Catherine might have something going on with another man in MOTC; Frank is going to join Catherine in the church to watch Jordan's pageant, but the seat next to Catherine has been reserved to someone else, and Frank sits down at the back of the church. A moment later we see some guy take the place next to Catherine. After the pageant, when Frank meets Jordan and Catherine outside the church, we see a glimpse of that guy with Catherine. And someone has given Jordan a Danny Dinosaur! Also, a bit later Catherine says to Frank that "I know that things are changing for us".

This gives me a good excuse to watch Midnight of the Century again, because I didn't really think anything of the man sitting next to Catherine, other than that he was an extra. I do agree that they were implying that Ann and Dave had separated and that Catherine and Jordan were going to move in with Ann and her child or children. Even if Catherine did have some kind of fling going on, which is something that I agree would be horrible writing and way out of character, I doubt that she would shack up with him so soon after Frank and Catherine separated and include Jordan. I had always gotten the impression that Frank and Catherine had not ruled out working things out, otherwise they would have just gotten a divorce. Even if they were to divorce, I see Catherine as the type who wouldn't just jump into a new relationship. I don't remember who has said what, but I agree with whoever mentioned that the scene at the pageant was a metaphor for the continued separation of Frank and Catherine, and also that it allowed Frank to be in back and notice the man in the garden. Otherwise, it would be hard to believe that Frank, and nobody else would notice the man, and unlikely that Frank would leave Catherine and wade through an isle of peoples legs and packages to investigate something so inconsequential as someone passing by saying something. PS, I thought Frank had gotten her the Danny Dinosaur and that Jordan said that she already got the stuffed animal the previous year, which is consistent with what the helpers in the store were saying about no kid being happy with last years toy. So, to recap, in my opinion, there are no romantic flings or attractions implied in the series, either between Catherine and another man of between Frank and Lara or another woman. Of course, this is only my interpretation.

[Guest MillenniumIsBliss]

DBSD - you stole my thunder...i had earlier thought of posting these exact same thoughts, but at the last minute decided not to "open a can of worms" by having them attacked as "reading too much into the scene, etc" I am so glad that at least you see it in a similar fashion as I... . If you also recall this particular scene, you will remember that when the gentleman sits next to Catherine, she glances nervously back at Frank who is sitting a few rows behind her..by his reaction it appears that he is caught by surprise...yes, i have thought for a long time that the entire scene we are discussing was fraught with bizarre implications...

4th Horseman...

I just interpreted it as Catherine giving Frank a look like she felt bad that they were kept apart again and that Frank would have to sit by himself. Not only do I think a romantic interest would be out of character for Catherine, but I don't see why the writing of the scene would be so subtle to the point where most people wouldn't even pick up on it. If they were going to go there, I think they would have just written it into the story and gone with it. I will have to watch it again, but to me, the guy who is sitting next to Catherine seems to be totally oblivious of Catherine and her situation with Frank and so forth. I got the impression that he was simply an extra who created the situation where Frank had nowhere to sit. Again, just my interpretation.