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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
Posted
I am with Libby on this one and the rude guy theorie. No way that M&W would have hinted that Catherine had a thing going on with some other guy. And if they did, if it was their intention, I've already said this, then it was just awfull character writing. Catherine would never do such a thing, not in a million years. By the way, there is an episode in season 2 where she says something like she is not living with her husband anymore but they still deeply love each other. IMHO you guys are seeing things that are not there. I remember a post from some weeks ago where someone stated that there were romantic feelings between Frank and Lara. I also disagreed with this. But once again, maybe the hints were there and I just did not notice them. But then again, if they were present it was just bad character writing. Anyway, I will rewacht MOTC again one of those days. Take care!

Yes, I agree across the board. Not only would these romantic angles be out of character with Frank and Catherine, but they would be inconsistent with the previous writing, such as you mentioned, with Catherine saying she "deeply loves" Frank. Also, as mentioned, why would these things be written in such a subtle way that many of the viewers would be likely not to even pick up on it at all or interpret it differently than intended. I agree though, it's about time to watch MOTC again.

Guest MillenniumIsBliss
Posted
I’m still with 4H on this; why include the mysterious man to the scene at all, if it wasn’t to hint that the relationship between Frank and Catherine had gone even worse than anyone had realised?

Btw, speaking of seeing things that are not there; I never said that Catherine would have done something highly inappropriate. Is dating someone during separation a very bad thing? She loved Frank, which is obvious all the time, throughout the series.

I will have to watch this episode for sure tonight, because I don't know what is "mysterious" about the man. He just seems like someone who was sitting there, and Catherine moved down next to him to make room for Frank and others who might need the room sense the seats were full (except in the very back). Then we see the rude woman take the seat that she seemed to have saved for Frank. If Catherine would have seemed uneasy about being seen by Frank with this guy, why would she even invite him to an event that she knew Frank would be at, and then additionally, save a seat for Frank. If Catherine did go out of character and went on a date, or invited a romantic interest, it would just be so weird that she would be expecting Frank, and want to sit between Frank and her date. Also, Catherine is a mature adult, and I could see her talking to the guy who happened to be seated next to her, and then continue to chat a bit after the show, without even considering that Frank would be suspicious that she was talking to another man.

Guest MillenniumIsBliss
Posted
I had a feeling that this issue would draw and quarter opinions at extreme ends of the spectrum...Ein042 - MOTC has remained one of my favorites as well. Its a great "feel-good" episode and the role Darrin McGavin plays is much more poignant since his death...this seems to be a classic "you say potatoe, i say potato, you say tomatoe, i say tomato" occurence...The point i am trying to make is that when more than one person interprets a series of events in a very similar manner but with polar opposite viewpoints than others, then there are questions concerning what was being communicated. Remember, Catherine never offers to get up and move to sit by Frank, opting to remain where she sat, when there were empty seats where Frank wound up sitting. Also if the gentleman sitting next to her was nothing more than coincidence, then why would she bother looking back to see if Frank was looking? And why would Frank take such particular notice? These are actions that, if not intended to have meaning, then should never have been introduced into the episode...thats what i am trying to say..

4th Horseman..

I see what you are saying, but for the sake of debate, Catherine seems to have known that Frank was coming to the pageant, so if she had any concerns of what Frank was thinking about who she was with, doesn't it seem like she would have just gone by herself? If Catherine did have some kind of romantic interest, it seems certain that Jordan would at least make mention of him at some point when she was alone with Frank. Also, why would a new romantic interest of Catherine's want to go to such a family oriented event that Frank was going to attend. I think her look back was just a "sorry, that worked out crappy" look, and Catherine was being polite to the rude lady who took the open seat, which I assume was being saved for Frank. I got the impression that they were already well into the play and that Catherine simply didn't think it was that important to sit next to Frank for the remainder. Plus, if Catherine was to stand up in front of people and work her way over to Frank in the back, it is unlikely that Jordan would even see them back there, especially sense Jordan already probably saw that Frank wans't there for the beginning and already knew where to look for Catherine. Maybe I am off on the time line though. It isn't a scene that I have really thought much about.

Guest MillenniumIsBliss
Posted

PS, I just watched the scene in question, and it is a little different than I remembered. For one thing, the thing with the seating takes place before the play starts. I had always thought that Frank arrived late, and the show already started. It does seem obvious that Catherine has saved the seat for Frank, and if you notice, right after the lady sits down in the empty chair, Catherine gives her a look like as though she is genuinely ticked off that she took the spot. The guy showing up and moving the package seems incidental to me and, once again, given that she was expecting Frank, it would have been very strange that she would invite a man who she was involved with romantically in any way. Also, the guy she is talking with after the show looks like an entirely different guy than the one who was sitting next to Catherine.

Posted
PS, I just watched the scene in question, and it is a little different than I remembered. For one thing, the thing with the seating takes place before the play starts. I had always thought that Frank arrived late, and the show already started. It does seem obvious that Catherine has saved the seat for Frank, and if you notice, right after the lady sits down in the empty chair, Catherine gives her a look like as though she is genuinely ticked off that she took the spot. The guy showing up and moving the package seems incidental to me and, once again, given that she was expecting Frank, it would have been very strange that she would invite a man who she was involved with romantically in any way. Also, the guy she is talking with after the show looks like an entirely different guy than the one who was sitting next to Catherine.
MIB...you and i have been good friends for quite some time here at TIWWA...I have the utmost respect for your opinions and responses, whether we agree or not...you speak of

"why the writing of the scene would be so subtle to the point where most people wouldn't even pick up on it"

LOL...isnt that what MillenniuM is all about? Its not always the obvious that produces discussion, if things were always obvious, there wouldnt be a reason for us to be here..Look at all the divergent discussions on the various topics here...one posts their thoughts, another posts their dissenting opinions..Look at all the references to 1013 in the various episodes, and how many people never picked up on those!!...

I will say that i am moving towards a different opinion after giving this issue some serious rethinking, fortified by repeated viewings of the sequence in question. I am shifting away from my initial feelings about the entire series of events in question....i will post more thoughts later...i will say that in re-watching MOTC, i got chills seeing Darrin McGavin walking towards the church as a fetch knowing that he just recently passed away...

4th Horseman...

Guest MillenniumIsBliss
Posted
MIB...you and i have been good friends for quite some time here at TIWWA...I have the utmost respect for your opinions and responses, whether we agree or not...you speak of

"why the writing of the scene would be so subtle to the point where most people wouldn't even pick up on it"

LOL...isnt that what MillenniuM is all about? Its not always the obvious that produces discussion, if things were always obvious, there wouldnt be a reason for us to be here..Look at all the divergent discussions on the various topics here...one posts their thoughts, another posts their dissenting opinions..Look at all the references to 1013 in the various episodes, and how many people never picked up on those!!...

I will say that i am moving towards a different opinion after giving this issue some serious rethinking, fortified by repeated viewings of the sequence in question. I am shifting away from my initial feelings about the entire series of events in question....i will post more thoughts later...i will say that in re-watching MOTC, i got chills seeing Darrin McGavin walking towards the church as a fetch knowing that he just recently passed away...

4th Horseman...

Yes, you make some good points. I can see what you mean about so many things being subtle on the show, but, as you seem to be leaning towards in your last post, the Catherine having a "boy friend" angle, if this had been the case in MOTC, would have been so thin that it would have been nearly invisible and, if intended, there would really not have been anything leading to it or following it up. Also, given the fact that it would have been so very subtle, there would be no way to confirm or deny it. Therefore, if this was the intent of the writing, I think they would have had to have given us much more, even to raise an eyebrow with the most loyal viewers. I have, however, had many times where I got a certain feeling or impression from a scene, based on some subtle facial expressions or oddities, so I can see where some would speculate about the scene. For some reason, much like the Mulder and Scully issues on the X-files, I am just fundamentally opposed to any romance between Frank and another woman (besides Catherine) or Catherine and another man (besides Frank). Therefore, my responses tend to be a bit spirited, and my opinions are probably bias towards this point of view.... I agree, the scene at the end with Frank's Dad showing up as a fetch was one of those great touching moments in the series.

Guest Moriarty
Posted
Yes, you make some good points. I can see what you mean about so many things being subtle on the show, but, as you seem to be leaning towards in your last post, the Catherine having a "boy friend" angle, if this had been the case in MOTC, would have been so thin that it would have been nearly invisible and, if intended, there would really not have been anything leading to it or following it up. Also, given the fact that it would have been so very subtle, there would be no way to confirm or deny it. Therefore, if this was the intent of the writing, I think they would have had to have given us much more, even to raise an eyebrow with the most loyal viewers. I have, however, had many times where I got a certain feeling or impression from a scene, based on some subtle facial expressions or oddities, so I can see where some would speculate about the scene. For some reason, much like the Mulder and Scully issues on the X-files, I am just fundamentally opposed to any romance between Frank and another woman (besides Catherine) or Catherine and another man (besides Frank). Therefore, my responses tend to be a bit spirited, and my opinions are probably bias towards this point of view.... I agree, the scene at the end with Frank's Dad showing up as a fetch was one of those great touching moments in the series.

I completely agree with you MIB. I also rewatched the scene and the guy is just pure accidental. When I go to school to pick up my daughter I also speak to other women that I know because their child is in the same class than my daughter. So really, there is nothing in that scene that speculates romantic involvement between Catherine and someone else besides Frank. It just doesn't make scene from my point of view. Later!

  • Elders (Moderators)
Posted

Many excellent posts here, and opinions very well expressed.; it's a great pleasure to read them. I'm sorry to be so stubborn, but I still think that the guy in that scene had some other meaning than just to create a situation where Frank had to take a seat at the back of the church in order to exit easily and meet the angel character in the churchyard. Had that been the only point, why was the guy there at all? Why not simply show that all the seats were already taken when Frank came in? (MIB, with "mysterious" I meant that we don't know who he is. Maybe the father of a schoolmate of Jordan? Then it wouldn't be so strange to "set up a date" in the pageant.)

I must emphasize, that I did not mean to say that Catherine had an affair. I meant to say (although I didn't manage to say it :grin: ) that she had a friend who could become more than a friend, and this was to show both Frank and the viewer that the amount of time for sorting things out is limited. (Things with Catherine, and with Frank's father. ) "Why put off till tomorrow what should be done today? It is, after all, the midnight of the century."

Posted
I must emphasize, that I did not mean to say that Catherine had an affair. I meant to say (although I didn't manage to say it :grin: ) that she had a friend who could become more than a friend, and this was to show both Frank and the viewer that the amount of time for sorting things out is limited. (Things with Catherine, and with Frank's father. ) "Why put off till tomorrow what should be done today? It is, after all, the midnight of the century."

Exactly! Well put DBSD! I agree this guy could be her tax accountant for all I know but she did smile at him and talk to him as if she knew him while Frank looked on with the same concern any man would feel if he were separated from the woman he loves, even if he trusts her completely.

I know you all want to let this go, I just have to clarify , 4th H. I wasn't saying it was bad writing - that was my misunderstanding of Moriarity's comment.

It was deliberate,(the seats being taken) the camera stayed on the seat next to Catherine with the gift and the coat just a little too long.

Now this could have been, as someone said, a device to allow Frank to make his exit in order to talk to the angel.

I can only imagine If Frank and Catherine WERE sitting together and he left in the middle of the pagent, what Catherines reaction might be.

It could have all been arrainged by the angel for that purpose.

Okay - that's all, I'll shut up now :oneeyedwinK

Posted

Exactly! Well put DBSD! I agree this guy could be her tax accountant for all I know but she did smile at him and talk to him as if she knew him while Frank looked on with the same concern any man would feel if he were separated from the woman he loves, even if he trusts her completely.

I know you all want to let this go, I just have to clarify , 4th H. I wasn't saying it was bad writing - that was my misunderstanding of Moriarity's comment.

I have arrived at a point now where i want/need to let this go. Suffice to say, and in conclusion (hopefully), i have shifted my viewpoint on this issue since its inception, nearly 180 degrees...After reviewing the episode AGAIN, and taking into consideration all that has been posted here on the subject, although no one post or person was instrumental in my shift, it boiled down to the hard evidence as presented by the facts...

1. I dont believe that Catherine ever had an intent on saving the seat for Frank (the one that the woman took) due to the fact that her only reaction was to cast an "evil" glance. Had anyone, you or I included, had saved a seat for someone, we would have spoken up "I'm sorry, that seat is taken" or we would have put something other than the pageant program on the seat to indicate that it was already occupied..I find this strange as Catherine KNOWS that Frank will be there...circumstantial evidence...Catherine's intent is not clear here...

Moriarty - Yes, i as well at times have, at school, spoken to another child's mother for some reason or another...this isnt the issue...here is the reality...when i attend one or both of my child's school presentations, my wife and i rarely arrive at the same time...either one gets there early and waits or they save a seat by putting more than just the program left by the school to indicate "that seat is taken"....i can tell you with absolute confidence, should this very incident have occurred, my wife would have removed herself from where she was sitting to go find a place where we could sit together, she would not have remained where she was, nor would i have either...Catherine obviously did not know the woman who took the one seat, but because she did not change her seating arrangement, it indicates that she more than likely had some idea of who the gentleman was, either that or she was either incredibly lazy or really didn't care if she sat by Frank or not...my point is, why would you or anyone sit between two complete strangers when all you have to do is move in order to sit next to your husband, wife, etc, and dont say there weren't any open seats, because there is at least two or three where Frank winds up sitting...doesnt make sense that she just sat there...at least to me...someone also mentioned the location of where they were sitting, it was harder to see Frank, etc.....Jordan did'nt come out on stage until after Frank had re-seated himself and had his encounter with the "messenger"..she had no clue where either Catherine or Frank were sitting, therefore arguments of where they were sitting are ambiguous at best..still however, only circumstantial evidence...

2. Frank's reaction to seeing the gentleman walk in front of Catherine, then sitting next to her. If you pay particular attention, if it was meant to be nothing, then Frank's reaction would not have been so noticable...the camera zooms in and focuses on Frank's face..its almost as if he senses something is "strange" about the whole thing..my point is, why even have him react? Why have him do a double take, obviously wondering who the guy is sitting next to his wife and probably wondering why Catherine didnt get up and join him where he sat...perhaps as Ein042 states there was a reason the unknown woman took the empty seat, perhaps it was to indicate, metaphorically, that as hard as both Frank and Catherine tried to "get together", that the seperation was growing more and more between them...was the woman's arrival at the precise time a "human" experience? Or was it something more sinister, since it continued to keep Catherine and Frank apart...perhaps this woman was a representation of Legion? "for we are many"......the timing is just too precise to chalk it up to a random or chance event, not so implausible when you consider that a few minutes later, Frank is talking to an "angel" who just disappears after their conversation..perhaps good and evil in the same episode?...probably not, but i am just trying to expand our horizons...LOL...

remember:

"Free your mind, and your ass will follow"...

However, even with what i see as clear evidence (Frank's reaction to the guy sitting next to Catherine being the key piece) i have come to the conclusion that the gentleman was most likely a father of one of Jordan's classmates, for we see Catherine speaking to the same individual outside the church and there is his daughter standing next to him who was also in the play...its very plausible that Catherine had come to know this guy just by the sheer fact of taking Jordan to and from school or thru Jordan's involvement in the pageant...i dont think, and i will have to review my previous posts, i ever mentioned that Catherine was "involving" herself with another man...perhaps i did, but if so, i wish to retract that at this time...

Finally, Catherine DOES apologize to Frank about the seating mix-up, seemingly with a degree of sincerity..Frank doesnt pursue it any further and for all intents and purposes, the issue is dropped...as it will be here by me...

In closing, Moriarity/MIB - i have come to think along the same lines as the two of you....even with the strong circumstantial evidence presented, it just is not enough to indict Catherine's intent, if there ever was any to begin with...

I will however state with a fair degree of certitude that i find it odd that several others here see it in an opposite light. One can claim that "you are seeing things that arent there", yet those with a dissenting viewpoint than the mainstream deserve to be respected and considered, for out of a perceived state of madness has come many a visionary...

sincerely to all who have replied - I am proud to call you my friends

4th Horseman...

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