Goodbye To All That

[TheAngel]

I can't help a feeling of impotence every time I see this episode. Emma, Peter & Frank represents to all of us. People living everyday with our doubts,our fears,our hopes,our fight against the troubles, the illness or a broken friendship... I think Millennium -a fiction show- is paradoxically just the most human and real show that I ever seen on TV. And is this feeling of reality which makes me think about these things.

The Group, they want to control the future? they want to build a better life? they have so fear like everyone with the things are happening in our world everyday?

Without doubt, the killer of Mr Baldwin he's a Millennium's member.

We all are shepherds

Peace

The Angel

[Guest roxygosia]

I have just seen the end of Season 3 first time after 9 years, and I must admit that I forgot how good this show was! Not good, excellent!!! I am sooo sad right now. The ending left me hearbroken, for Frank - for obvious reasons, for Emma - why, or why did she betray him? Well, I know, I know her father, but still ... ( I always, secretely wanted them to be a couple , Frank and Emma, that is - here I said it!) and for Watts - who turned out to be a good guy in the end - although I think that he always was, he was just blinded by the MM propaganda. I felt really bed for Emma, I don't think she realized what she really did until it was too late, then again, I don't think she had a choice, as Frank said, they would approach her sooner or later, and this way at least she saved her father, but imagine how she must felt when she was standing there when Frank was cleaning his desk, and all of this just 2 episodes after she tells to that sheriff guy in "Nostalgia" that what she learned from Frank and what he showed her cannot be really put in words, it was such a beautiful moment, it showed how much Frank really ment to her, and now this! It's too sudden!

Do you think that MM forseen that she may want to back out and did the surgery on her father sooner so she would fall in their trap? I like to think so, I like to think that she was just a victim of an elaborate set up and no matter what decision she would have made, it would still be the same result She was just on the phone to tell Watts she can't do it - so I can't really hate her for what she had done to Frank, I just feel very very sad....

So, now I got it off my chest, I feel a little better.

thanks for listening

[ethsnafu]

What a concise and considered post!

Whilst we are all allowed a little artistic license in approaching our apocalyptic subject matter I have to confess that a Holliss/Black relationship would have soured the cream for me and would be highly disdainful and negligent of Frank's arc during S3. The whole premise of S3 finds its foundations in a grieving man channelling his psychological torment into the act of vindicating his wife's death. His denunciation of 'The Group' and rejection of Watts was the physical manifestation of the internal guilt and torment he was enduring since the loss of Catherine, to have him hook up with a character with whom he had no profound emotional resonance would have sullied the ache and sense of privation Henriksen brought to the role.

Admittedly characters come and characters go but Frank's interpersonal relationship with Hollis negates any suggestion that it could have sensibly been depicted as anything more than paternal. Even in his relationship with Lara he displayed a calescence and sense of internalisation with regards to her fate, Frank clearly feels for Lara though whatever amatory feelings she may hold for him he did not reciprocate, finding a unity with her only through their common experiences. When Hollis affirms her own machinations and tells Frank she is to join the group his nonchalant, matter of fact repudiation that 'she must do what she has to' shows how little attached to her he is given his current preoccupation with mourning his wife's death and concerning himself with his daughter's future. Frank never had much of a chemistry with Hollis and though it may be controversial to assert probably had a more bewitching polarity with nemesis Lucy Butler.

Frank and Hollis? Not for me but then Lara and Frank is also not for me so at least I can be vindicated that I judge regardless of preference.

Best wishes,

Eth

[Guest Jim McLean]

I think what made Frank so fantastic was that his character didn't follow the Hollywood trend of either being attracted to other woman beyond Catherine or placed in romantic storylines. Beyond the dull cliche of hero with chicks, any such attempts would have - IMO - betrayed the very ethos of Frank's character - realistic or not - and that's Family. He loved his family. He loved his wife, he loved his daughter. The show needed that idealistic motivation to play contrast to the dark world which Frank fights. Even though he was close to Lara, I never felt the feelings that Lara appeared to have were reciprocated. He cared for her, he empathised with her and she carried a special bond through their rare gifts.

I couldn't see anything piercing Frank's family ethos.

It made Frank such a powerful and pure force - and I agree, his relationship with Hollis was nothing but paternal at best.

As for Lucy, surely the point was man was able to avoid her powers of seduction - not even Frank. I know that wasn't what Eth was referring to, but just for the point, Lucy had power of Man which rather negates any of Frank's sexual interest - it was something even he could never control.

[ethsnafu]

Agreed my friend,

I have to admit that had a relationship between Hollis and Frank received even the merest of possibilities during the third season I would consider it a transgression and moment of blatant shark jumping. It isn't that I have a great consternation with Hollis, though I find her occasionally uninspired, it is for the reasons you note that such a thing would have been unforgivable. The portrayal of Frank during Season Three is one of the most powerful displays of pathos I have seen in a long while and the depiction of his relationship with Jordan is the best example of a father/daughter relationship before or since. Relationships with either Lara or Emma would have sullied what was the real underpinning of the show which was one man's war to make existence safer for the family he so loved.

In the same vein I know some vent frustration with Season Two's decision to split the family asunder though in my eyes it simply allowed them to drive home the same message in a very different way and ultimately made the death of Catherine much more tragic and emotionally difficult for Frank.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments on Lara. Whilst there are brief flashes that she may harbour something more than feelings of friendship they are brief and they are ambiguous and in no part a major aspect of the character. It was nice to see that a character who was inserted to specifically tackle issues of loneliness and isolation began to grow in emotional stature thanks to her interaction with Frank but it would have been wrong in my view to have her blatantly lusting after a very much married man or to have him reciprocate this.

Best wishes,

Eth

[4th Horseman]

If Lara could'nt hop on the Frank bus, then Hollis had no chance...there were moments when you could imagine a growing emotional attachment between Frank and Lara, Midnight of the Century, in the car at the end of "Goodbye Charlie", yet, i never factored in anything more than a working relationship with Emma, with the one exception being the hug at the end of "Seven and One"...

just my opinion...

4th Horseman

[Guest Laurent.]

If Lara could'nt hop on the Frank bus, then Hollis had no chance...

Hahaha I second that!!

[ethsnafu]

Can I third it? Lovely turn of phrase, just love it and simple a 'in a nutshell' analysis of the situation.

Best wishes,

Eth

PS Isn't it about time there was a full-bodied resume of Emma Hollis? Whilst countless threads have turned their attention to the positives and negatives of Means and Black I cannot recall a decent autopsy of this character ever happening. Maybe it would be interesting to ride on the impetus provided by this thread and share a few feelings on the character?

[Guest Jim McLean]

Then do the deed my friend. :)

Interesting we talk about Frank not being interested in Emma - of course we've not really put the question on the line as to why Emma would have any interest in Frank. He may be someone she'd respect, but fancy? Not sure there.

But yes, for another thread maybe.

As for Lara and Frank - I think there was a connection, and quite possibly in a different life, there may have been a mutual affinity that could have lead to something else unhampered by Frank's family bond. Of course, the question would have to be would that be the same Frank we know? How much is Frank's personality anchored by his love for his family?

On topic: I loved the end with Emma in GTAT - after her questionable relevance in the season (for me), the show ended on a blunt uncompromising note. I never figured she'd succumb to Watts. It helped give her character more definition, rather than becoming a clone of Scully's role in the X-Files.

[ethsnafu]

Hi Laredo,

My take on Emma's interest in Frank is that it fits rather neatly with the character's search for gnosis. It appears to me that the character is driven by an all pervasive need to understand 'Malum in se' in order that she can understand the reason for her sister's demise. When she first meets Frank she makes it apparent that she is aware of his reputation for abstract thought and analytical excellence and she shows an interest not in him uniquely but more in the methodology and thought processes he employs. Closure goes much further in stating Emma's need for order and the obsessive way in which she strives to find sense in chaos and Darwin's Eye apes this episode in this instance by again having her search for understanding. I think it is that pathological need for answers that drew Emma to the man who seemed capable of providing them for her and, as indicated in Bardo Thodol, she meets her fate at the hands of the Group when she begins to realise that it is capable of providing much more than Frank. In a sense she uses Frank and states as much in Nostalgia when she talks of all that she has learned from him shortly before succumbing to the temptations of the Group.

And here's my thing. It is interesting to note that at no point does the Group bargain to save her father's life in exchange for Group membership. Considering the rather extraordinary candidates they normally seek there is little to suggest that Emma has much to offer. What they actually ask for is that she uses her influence to encourage Frank to rejoin them. I suppose it could be assumed that in order to do this it is necessary that she does so from within the Group itself but I prefer to wonder if she joined them of her own volition arising because of her tireless quest for understanding.

Best wishes,

Eth