Jump to content

Goodbye To All That

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

Guest Laurent.

And here's my thing. It is interesting to note that at no point does the Group bargain to save her father's life in exchange for Group membership. Considering the rather extraordinary candidates they normally seek there is little to suggest that Emma has much to offer. What they actually ask for is that she uses her influence to encourage Frank to rejoin them. I suppose it could be assumed that in order to do this it is necessary that she does so from within the Group itself but I prefer to wonder if she joined them of her own volition arising because of her tireless quest for understanding.

I thought Watts stated clearly that they wanted to have her in the group and would make sure that she ended up at the head of her department. My best guess was that the Group needed someone in power at the FBI with Maclaren retiring; which is why they killed Baldwin in the first place, to kick him out of the FBI ladder, knowing that Hollis would be "easier to get" because of her father's situation.

She was not charmed into the group as an "extraordinary candidate", but simply as a member in "high places" within the FBI.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Laran,

Watts states that he wants Frank out of the Group and that Emma is charged with the responsibility of making this happen in exchange for a cure for her Father. The maneuver to place Emma in a position of power is simply because it necessary to allow her to come good on her promise: namely she can't get him out merely by asking nicely and needs to be in a position to remove him forcibly. The point I wanted to make is that Emma is not coveted for her excellence rather she is a pawn in a scheme to manipulate Frank nor is she seen as 'a friend in high places', she is ultimately a means to an end nothing more. Peter, Frank, Lara and others were desired by the Group because of the unique skills each of them had whereas in this instance a member is coveted solely to provide a way for the Group to attain its true prize. When I mentioned my belief that she does this with some willingness given her need for answers and the interest she has previously espoused in the knowledge the group possesses I simply wanted to address the assumption that she is nothing more than a victim and whilst the group see her as little more than a pawn in the grand plans I feel that, although reluctantly, she may have attained what she secretly desired.

I hope that's a clearer example of my thoughts on this but agree it is always open to any interpretation.

Best wishes,

Eth

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Laurent.

Ah ok... we're on the same page then!

Hahaha I guess sometimes I just like to argue without any apparent reasons and with people who share my opinions......................... :doh:

Oh and for the record, I especially agree with this:

I think it is that pathological need for answers that drew Emma to the man who seemed capable of providing them for her and, as indicated in Bardo Thodol, she meets her fate at the hands of the Group when she begins to realize that it is capable of providing much more than Frank.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Laran,

I have edited your post to remove the first quote simply because I changed the content of my own at the time of posting and thus the quote was no longer applicable. Fear not that it violated any rules it was simply me tinkering around at the same time :)

Eth

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi guys

To return to the discussion. I have just realised the similarities between Emma and Lara in regards to their narratives. Whilst both are searching for dissimilar knowledge they are both compelled to make choices based on their respective need for answers. In much the same way as Hollis views Frank and as vehicle of understanding and ultimately believes the Group can provide much more than he, Lara turns to the Group for precisely the same reason. Whilst Frank's quest is altruistic, seeking to improve the reality his family exists in both Lara and Emma are on quests of a more selfish nature. I am always reminded of the rather poignant scene in Goodbye Charlie in which Lara breaks with best practice upon questioning Kiley and begs him to help her acquire the same level of understanding he has in regards to metaphysical preoccupations. What is so striking is the fact that she is begging a man for help she is moments before berating as a cold blooded murder much in the same way as Emma denounces the Group as her nemesis in Bardo whilst concomitantly desiring access to the secrets they posses.

Whilst Franks voyage with Legion was a tale in which a man resisted the desire to succumb to temptation, Emma and Lara's arc is one of ultimately making a deal with the devil and one in which temptation is ultimately too strong.

I have often wondered if Hollis was the next intended recipient of Legion's attention as Seven and One has many moments that suggest that trials and tribulations that Frank has endured at the hands of the entity are to come to end. In the final moments when Legion presents himself to Hollis as a shade of herself I wondered if it indicated that the next 'cycle' would be hers to endure. In succumbing to the Group are we seeing a foreshadowing of the ultimate price she will pay for her lack of resolve and predisposition to temptation. If Legion had infiltrated the Group, a suggestion often made and supported by the presence of Mabius, was her joining of the Group merely the beginning of events that are suggested, to my mind, set in sequence in Seven and One.

Or is this the inane ramble of a fanboy with too much time on his hands this evening :)

Best wishes,

Eth

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jim McLean

Interesting stuff. I'm bouncing on Spider-Sense alone here, so forgive me if my remarks are astray from fact. It's all simple gut work!

In much the same way as Hollis views Frank and as vehicle of understanding and ultimately believes the Group can provide much more than he, Lara turns to the Group for precisely the same reason. Whilst Frank's quest is altruistic, seeking to improve the reality his family exists in both Lara and Emma are on quests of a more selfish nature.

Interestingly, could we not throw the same "selfish" desires towards Frank and see the Group as a temptation of knowledge that itself comes with a price? Not that the Group is by nature inherently evil (though its mandate is beginning to distort heavily by the 20th Century), but those who give themselves to the Group do so at a cost. Frank turns to the group for his own reasons. Like Lara and Emma, it is not because he believes in the Group, it is because the Group has something to offer him.

Whilst Franks voyage with Legion was a tale in which a man resisted the desire to succumb to temptation, Emma and Lara's arc is one of ultimately making a deal with the devil and one in which temptation is ultimately too strong.

But does Frank succumb to temptation? He joins the Group - maybe not as a full fledged inner member, but he too is being tempted?

Perhaps the Group isn't the "deal with the devil" - maybe it is a pact against the devil and as a soldier, the outcomes of such a pact can be wholly detrimental. Again, just throwing an idea out there. Because after all, the Group was set up to fight the likes of Legion. True, its nature has become corrupt by the Millennium, but if we take Siren literally, Frank is offered a choice between enjoying his Family and risking Legion's grasp (as he does in season three post Group) or fighting as he was doing for the Group.

One could argue that by Sirens, the Group was, by and large, a good force still, even if its methods were decidedly becoming questionable. Maybe the loss of the Old Man spells the change that allows Legion into the Group, the loss of the one final bastion of the true Group ethos.

My point being I guess that even Frank's reasons are only altruistic to some extent. His love for his family is - as with most love - selfish, possessive. He cares for people, he may care for the direction of the human race, but what separates out Frank from even the "good" Group like The Old Man is he has no real interest in a larger picture, only his family. In such a sense, maybe there are less divided barriers between Frank, Lara and Emma that initially meets the eye.

Only question is as you say, will how will Emma pay the price? I think I agree. That the reflection of herself in Legion is an indicator of her future path - if the Group itself has been infiltrated - that eventually the she, like the Group will belong to Legion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm with you on this Laredo,

In proposing that Frank's intentions are altruistic I am asserting that at its pure and undiluted form the cause is not about himself. Admittedly he uses the Group as the means to make manifest his desires but these desires largely focus on his concerns regarding his family. I concur that it is true that such an action displays many elements of seeking to satisify a very personal desire and thus arguable in the sense that it is altruistic yet conceptually and intentionally his 'thought precedes feeling precedes action' complex originates with an altruistic concept made manifest microcosmicly with different connotations from the self-serving desires of Emma and Lara. Lara and Emma begin their journeys by an introspective evaluation of the needs of the 'I' and whilst they seek to satisfy this itch in a way that is comparative with the decisions and actions of Frank my point is that the impetus is distinctly different. Altruism in its etymological sense is not defined by the actions we take but in the intention that is the causal impetus for them.

I admit I find your post fascinating and wonder if my own grasp of the scenario is, to nerdishly quote Seven of Nine, 'Insufficient' but I am with you 100% on your statement with regards to Hollis. My own reaction to narrative has always been that her thirst for gnosis not only delivers her into the Group but into the influence of Legion and we are dealing with a very different character here to that of Frank and Lara. Emma is a very organic character basing everything in the physical and nothing in the etheric and she lacks the experiential knowledge that Frank and Lara relied on to inform their actions. Though both made mistakes they did at least have a metaphysical rampart against antagonistic agencies whilst Emma is left with nothing more than gross human reactions and cognitive analysis both of which she relies heavily on Frank to inform. If ever Legion needed a vulnerable victim Hollis, in many ways, was it, desperate, unsure and easily influenced she is a sure and certain target for a parasitic entity desirous of a willing host.

Ramble, ramble, ramble,

I guess I never learn.

Eth

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gosh I'm double posting,

I have given much time to considering the excellent points Laredo raises and have concluded that the differences in the intentions and actions of Frank, Lara and Emma whilst appearing distinct may share many similarities as Laredo suggests. I was recalled to the scene in Season Two in which Frank is given forewarning of an impending earthquake by Watts. His accuracy forces Frank to re-evaluate his position on the Group despite the fact that it occurs at the pivotal moment when it seems that Catherine has accepted him back into her life. To be fair no matter how many times I have viewed this the selfishness and arguable insensitivity with which Frank potentially jeopardises his marriage because the temptation to possess knowledge is too great is quite staggering. I believe it is the first time that Frank openly represents the Group as a vehicle for personal satisfaction rather than one that helps to ensure the world is a better place for his family and despite it being a fleeting moment of selfishness it does much to stoke the embers of Catherine's consternation. I suppose that regardless of intent, true acts of altruism are rare and it is probably quite correct to state that despite the trappings and trimmings at the heart of the narrative there were indeed three individuals lured by the promise of Gnosis.

Best wishes,

Eth

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Jim McLean

I must confess my need to re-watch MM in its entirety makes me cautious not to overstep my mark here when it comes to details.

I suppose there the age old question as to whether there truly is an altruistic action. As such, anyone entering the Group will do so for their own needs - which I suppose is the power of any cult; the ability to tap into what is important in their target and exploit it. One could argue the Group exploited Frank's love of his family by focusing on his need to protect them, and by doing so separated him from the people he sought to protect, as well as involving them more closely in dangers they might not have previously been privy to. All for the Group's desire for Frank.

Given the Group is clearly based on the cult template in season two, this is of no surprise. The Group manipulates the candidates desires, promises them what they need and then traps them in the broader truth making them powerless to leave, now knowing the horrifying bigger picture.

Perhaps because there was no weakness to exploit in Frank. Maybe, as far as actions can be altruistic, maybe his was the closest. Consider Sirens, where the dream the siren gives Frank his desire, its not a place or a situation as such, but the answer to a question - what would his life be like if he simply did as he desired and gave up the road against evil he walked upon? It could be argued that beyond his frail human need, Frank's desire goes beyond a personal utopia, but simply what road might genuinely protects his family. The answer is Frank must fight - maybe not with the Group, but he can't sit back and enjoy his family - he can't have what he wants, if he wants to protect.

Maybe Sirens shows us Frank's true calling - the willingness to fight the fight with little hope of getting what he desires. Maybe its that strength that breaks the Group's hold, because they don't have anything to lure him with in the long term.

Lara is even more interesting. Did her choice to give Frank the antidote infer that she escaped the clutches of the Group, rebelling against the self-interest of the membership, or was it a gift to the man who had managed to avoid the path she had taken; her last altruistic act before the Group swallowed her up into its fold - providing she survived the plague.

With Emma I see no such redemption. Emma made a deal to betray a friend to save her family, lured by the Group's ability to manipulate her pain. Given the reflection in Legion, I wonder if there is any hope for her at all when even her loved one rejects the gift she has sold her soul for.

Edited by Jim McLean
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using our website you consent to our Terms of Use of service and Guidelines. These are available at all times via the menu and footer including our Privacy Policy policy.