Why do you like 'The Hand of Saint Sebastian'?

[Guest ModernDayMoriarty]

It goes without saying that an episode some people love, others will hate - one man's masterpiece is another man's 'Thirteen Years Later...' Certain episodes however strike me by their ability to polarise opinion and for their difference to my opinion. Let me explain that apparently arrogant statement: When watching both the X-Files and Millennium, I find that the viewers are generally speaking, a pretty smart bunch who know what is really good and what is really, really bad. So it is always strange when an episode comes along that is either a) loved by everyone except a small few who consider it unutterably awful, or b) hated by everyone except a few who etc etc. An example from the X-Files would be 'Aubrey' which I loved completely as did all my friends, but it seems to have received a shrug of indifference at best on-line...

So, 'The Hand of Saint Sebastian' then... The Millennial Abyss gives this 5 out of 5, nearly everyone I have seen online seems to really love it to bits and consider it a great episode for explaining the Millennium Group (amongst other things). Now what I want to know (and this is honest curiosity), is why you like it so much? What makes it a great episode for you because quite frankly I find it hard to watch at all, let alone consider it a great episode. I'll start what I hope will be a civilsed discussion on this (I really just want to know) by saying why I dislike it so much.

Well, it seems fairly obvious to me that Morgan and Wong wanted to go for an Indiana Jones type feel here. The heroes running around trying to find religious artifacts whilst dodging the dastardly hun (germans) along the way. Light hearted japery mixed with serious religious concerns. I will come right out and say that I have no problem with this IN IT'S PLACE. I love the Indy films but this is Millennium and it is also set in the modern times, not the 30's. The caricatured Germans with their clipped, shrill behaviour and smart uniforms just seem ridiculously stereotyped and not a little insulting really. Killers that walk around wearing trenchcoats and hats like the very worst of B-list thrillers and it only got worse after this episode with the preposterous Nazi storyline in Owls/Roosters.

I just cannot engage with such exaggerated nonsense. Hired assassins, cars blowing up and what about that German cop? Oh dear, oh dear. In a 'joke' that rivals the infamous 'Town Sherrif' debacle from the otherwise superior 'Beware of the Dog', this character was very ill-advised. Henrikson looked like he wanted the earth to open up and swallow him every time he opened his mouth to spew another silly cop show phrase. The character served no real purpose, he wasn't funny in any way and lowered the tone which was already rather low. This is futher diminished by the highly improbable and actually quite idiotic thread about the on-line sex chats which they use to find out about the Hand's location. The chances of the password being broken like that are slim at best and nevertheless, it was a trashy and pointless aspect to introduce - seemingly just to give roedecker something to do (who was just as irritating as he usually was).

There are problems that I have with the whole premise of Watts searching for the Hand as well. The episode correctly states that until now, Watts has not seemed to be an overly superstitious guy at all. His searching for the Hand does seem rather out of character. The problem I have is that Watts is supposedly a Rooster, that is he believes the end will come at the Millennium because it has been foretold. Now, that just doesn't seem to track, he is either spiritually minded or he isn't. The Season One Watts seemed much more like Frank: a non-believer generally but commited to doing the right thing. This episode appears to support that but then breaks it right down just a few episodes later. Are we supposed to believe that he has 'found God' because of his finding the body (which is very poorly handled by the way - fall into a bog and hey look! it's the Hand of Saint Sebastian, what a lucky find...) The whole idea of the religious relics with super powers is a poor one (for Millennium to be using) and at least the Hand didn't seem to have any of those. But neither does the quest seem very hard or particularly worthwhile anyway.

Aside from all the other problems I have (and I hope I have conveyed that they are a real impediment to my ever liking this episode), I do not consider it to be an episode that reveals much of anything about the Millennium Group as people have claimed it does. Intimating that the group is very, very old and concerned with the idea of the Millennium is nothing really new. Okay, it is news that the Group is that old but otherwise? Their cultish aspects and philosophies (which I still think Frank would have rejected outright after his talk with the Old Man) have been adequately explained in 'Beware of the Dog'. This is a trashy, poorly conceived attempt to do an action thriller in Millennium, it wastes the potenntial that placing Watts more centrally in the storyline affords and has Frank trailing around not doing much of anything. I will re-iterate that Henrikson looks embarassed to be in this episode as he seems to be on acting autopilot in the episode's sillier scenes. I think that if the supposedly humourous parts were excised and the episode was a two parter (for God's sake, Owls/Roosters got to be a two-parter and that had no good ideas really!), it stood a chance of being okay. Generally though, the whole treasure hunting thing just didn't for me at all, neither did the Tom Clancyesque techno thriller moments that are more in evidence in Owls/Roosters.

I would sincerely like to hear why people like this episode. I (and people I know who watch Millennium) consider it an embarassing mistake of an episode and cannot understand why it is so highly regarded. Thank You.

Edited January 22, 2004 by ModernDayMoriarty

[Guest Wellington]

Hi

Well, it seems that you and I are perfectly opposed on the MM spectrum!

The Hand and Roosters/Owls are my favorite episodes. I just like the mystic depth that was added to the Group and its high profile members. It puts a great deal of potential fanatism on it, shows the way a mentor system can reach its own limits and turns upon itself.

I think the Group needed an esoterical background. Otherwise, what would be its purpose? Be a FBI spin off? A government dependant social club? I think those episodes help to justify the Group as we see it through its actions, methods, dillemmas and goals. It helps placing the Old Man in the picture too. Not a chairman, he is the Group's anchor, memories, history, traditions bearer and flame carrier.

I think too that Watts character could be a bit stretched in them. But on the other hand, he is perfectly suited to those spiritual/ideological quests. He is a solid character, not easy to be shown wrong. Maybe those quests are his own weaknesses. Strong on the outside but full of questions inside.

That is a bit of my vision about the episodes. I should think and develop a bit more I guess.

Regards

[Guest F_Black]

I like it principally because it shows the depth of time associated with the Group. They were around a thousand years ago for that millennium and they are still here for this one. Such time depth and continuity is a rare thing to contemplate for most people. The actual linking{/I] of the members of the Group across that kind of a span of time via bog mummies works well because -- as they discuss at the end -- it's a physical link. This was an actual human being confronting the same problems we do today. They (the mummies) become sort of a physical embodiment of the orobouros and what it represents: cycles, continuity, life, death, etc.

Now, some of the other junk I could have done without (e.g., the goofy German cop; although when he dropped the TV lingo schtick I liked the character). Eh, every episode can't be perfect. But on the whole I loved it.

[Guest LauraKrycek]

Well, I thought that there were some really funny moments in it, esp. with Roedecker, whom I *ADORE*. Other than that, honestly, I can't say that much else of it sticks with me. I don't have a copy of that one, so I haven't seen it since before FX took it off (geez... that'd be during my first semester at college, over two years ago), and while a lot of it would come back as I read a summary or something, I just don't really have the desire. It's one of the ones that I'm more indifferent about.

[Guest se7en]

Well, I thought that there were some really funny moments in it, esp. with Roedecker, whom I *ADORE*.  Other than that, honestly, I can't say that much else of it sticks with me.  I don't have a copy of that one, so I haven't seen it since before FX took it off (geez... that'd be during my first semester at college, over two years ago), and while a lot of it would come back as I read a summary or something, I just don't really have the desire.  It's one of the ones that I'm more indifferent about.

...to me,even though i love the episode,in hindsight this is really the first episode that completely deviates from C.C.'s own vision of the show and,most importantly,"what" the MillenniuM group is supposed to be. Hmmm

se7en

[voidprime]

I like this episode because it delves into the mythology of the Millennium Group. One of my favorite episodes of season 2.

Be Seeing You,

David Blackwell

[Guest ModernDayMoriarty]

Well, really it is a question of 'why do you like Season Two?' I suppose in many ways. I know a lot of critics (and I agree with this), disliked Season Two because it largely ditched the gritty realism of Season One. The whole season two bleeds with symbolism (which is acceptable as it means there is a lot to analyse in the episodes) but loses that credibility that made Season One such essential television.

It was interesting to note that in a recent poll here, someone (sorry I forgot who), asked what everyone's favourite aspect of the show was. Now given that Millennium Season One is billed as 'Chris Carter's dark drama on the nature of evil' and that Carter cites his reasons for the show as staring down evil and making people confront the kind of society we live in, it was surprising to see the results. No-one, not one person cited the 'study of evil in it's various forms' to be their favourite aspect (except me but I didn't vote). Does that mean that Millennium failed in it's primary objective?

Nevertheless, the show was critically acclaimed in Season One for it's aims and caned in Season Two for abandoning that and drowning the show in angels and symbolism, bizarre humour and tiresome in-jokes to Space, above and Beyond. Things just got out of hand, what with the Millennium Group having access to world-devastating viruses, hit squads, rivalries with neo-Nazi groups. There just wasn't any credibility. The main problem was that all human crimes seemed to be the fault of this 'evil force' according to Morgan and Wong and that wasn't what Carter intimated in Lamentation. Fabricant is not being controlled by the evil force - he is an evil man but in the end he is just as much a victim as anyone else. Season Two has very few examples of this greater evil and when it shows up it is rarely ever as terryifying as in Lamentation. Beware of the Dog has an adequate stab at it with the dogs but 'Monster's' portayal of a demon child is just lame and not frightening at all. The Mikado is one of the only Season Two episodes that has an evil man at the centre of things again. The critics HATED that the show began to start blaming human actions on supernatural forces and I did too. The point was originally to show that evil existed because we created it. I disagree in the strongest terms when the Old Man says that crime is not evil, it's just society. It's all very well to talk of greater powers and true evil but to most people, crime is a very real evil - try telling the victims that it could have been worse!

If they had gone on to show how potent a force this great darkness was then it could have worked. I wanted the Millennium Group to stay as force for good, an informed group of committed people decicated to combating this evil. The whole conspiracy thing they opted for just re-hashed the X-Files as Season Two did in broad strokes anyway. It may not be particularly popular to write things like this but I believe in writing what I think. Millennium was a great show, no doubt about it and it isn't like Season Two doesn't have anything good about it, far from it. But it did fail and it pays to try and understand why it failed in my opinion so 1013 (or anyone else) who tries something similar don't make the same mistakes.

Thanks.

[Guest se7en]

Well, really it is a question of 'why do you like Season Two?' I suppose in many ways. I know a lot of critics (and I agree with this), disliked Season Two because it largely ditched the gritty realism of Season One. The whole season two bleeds with symbolism (which is acceptable as it means there is a lot to analyse in the episodes) but loses that credibility that made Season One such essential television.

It was interesting to note that in a recent poll here, someone (sorry I forgot who), asked what everyone's favourite aspect of the show was. Now given that Millennium Season One is billed as 'Chris Carter's dark drama on the nature of evil' and that Carter cites his reasons for the show as staring down evil and making people confront the kind of society we live in, it was surprising to see the results. No-one, not one person cited the 'study of evil in it's various forms' to be their favourite aspect (except me but I didn't vote). Does that mean that Millennium failed in it's primary objective?

Nevertheless, the show was critically acclaimed in Season One for it's aims and caned in Season Two for abandoning that and drowning the show in angels and symbolism, bizarre humour and tiresome in-jokes to Space, above and Beyond. Things just got out of hand, what with the Millennium Group having access to world-devastating viruses, hit squads, rivalries with neo-Nazi groups. There just wasn't any credibility. The main problem was that all human crimes seemed to be the fault of this 'evil force' according to Morgan and Wong and that wasn't what Carter intimated in Lamentation. Fabricant is not being controlled by the evil force - he is an evil man but in the end he is just as much a victim as anyone else. Season Two has very few examples of this greater evil and when it shows up it is rarely ever as terryifying as in Lamentation. Beware of the Dog has an adequate stab at it with the dogs but 'Monster's' portayal of a demon child is just lame and not frightening at all. The Mikado is one of the only Season Two episodes that has an evil man at the centre of things again. The critics HATED that the show began to start blaming human actions on supernatural forces and I did too. The point was originally to show that evil existed because we created it. I disagree in the strongest terms when the Old Man says that crime is not evil, it's just society. It's all very well to talk of greater powers and true evil but to most people, crime is a very real evil - try telling the victims that it could have been worse!

If they had gone on to show how potent a force this great darkness was then it could have worked. I wanted the Millennium Group to stay as force for good, an informed group of committed people decicated to combating this evil. The whole conspiracy thing they opted for just re-hashed the X-Files as Season Two did in broad strokes anyway. It may not be particularly popular to write things like this but I believe in writing what I think. Millennium was a great show, no doubt about it and it isn't like Season Two doesn't have anything good about it, far from it. But it did fail and it pays to try and understand why it failed in my opinion so 1013 (or anyone else) who tries something similar don't make the same mistakes.

Thanks.

...WOW! talk about being candid and blunt in expressing one's views! A man after my own heart!-(well,you know what i mean. ) you tell it as you see it. PERIOD. bravo!

......well,there is certainly no doubt that after the first 3-4 eps of S2 that ratings sunk pretty much like a stone,and there was much uproar from a lot of s1 hardcore fans about the new direction. but whether it was the drastic change of direction,ala S3 from S2,that alienated it's harcore fans thus being the main cause of the ratings plunge is certainly up for debate. it was probably one,of many,causes,NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH WAS VERY LAX PROMOTION ON THE PART OF FOX and C.C. either not able or not willing to rein in M&W when he was working on the x-files movie and S5-XF to attempt,and a poor attempt it was,to try and have season-5 XF flow into the XF-movie. there was a period of time,and to some extent it still exists,where some fans of S2 just claimed that it's esoteric themes,and what M&W were trying to do,was simply over the heads of the common fans of S1. i found that attitude,and still do whenever i encounter it,to be highly inulting as S1,despite,IMO,being erroniously pegged as a "serial killer of the week",was meticulously resaerched,uncompromising in it's own vision,and featured some of the best brightest writers in all of television,hell in ANY medium,including those by M&W.

...if my own criteria for best season was strictly in terms of consistency in writing,research,execution and vision,then i would easily say that S1 is simply the best. whether real or imagined-(i would like to think real based on what research i have so far done)-i do indeed see very many subtle hints/clues and a definate buildup towards the events that transpired in lamentation/p.p.t.d.) ...i am aware that fox wanted some changes midway through the season but i think a strong case can be made that changes were already coming anyway,and that it was planned well in advance even if they did not know yet "exactly" how the true introduction of legion was going to play out.

...i also strongly think that if just 2-writers from S1,just two(!),had not quit over the changes being proposed in S2 that the season could have been much more balanced and consistent a journey. ...those 2-writers would be the amazing Ted-(Teddy)-Mann and Joge Zamacona.-(i also wish that S1 director Winrich Kolbe had not left as well as his episodes were some of the most vividly directed of the entire series besides Thomas J. Wright.)

...for what it is worth,it is my opinion that if you look at the series in it's entirety then,yes,it did overall succeed in it's original primary direction. while i see season-2 as a sort of an anomaly in the series;some good,some horrid,i do beleive that season-1 was a study of human-evil,season-2 a somewhat uneven study of supernatural evil,and season-3 to be a sort of more coherant-(yes,S3-haters,i am using that word,lol)-blend of human and supernatural evil combined with the approach of the millennial outcome,whatever that was ultimately going to be.-(i wholly and completely disregard the crossover ep as nothing but overripe-sh*t on a shingle). ...i also beleive that season-3 was a deft exploration of the toll that such a quest has taken on a man with unique gifts,and his family. was S3 somewhat uneven at times? YES. especially in the beginning when the producers/writers were battling to get "thier" vision on screen while FOx was in the background fighting every step of the way. and though there were superb eps before human essence,it was after that episode,for me,that MM got it's true soul back. some eps may have been all over the place but it's overwhelming vibe/emotional core remained consistent to this fan. ....the previous was not another "why i love S3 diatribe,as i love S1 pretty much equelly at this point,the above were reasons why i do think the series,taken as a whole,did succeed,for the most part,in it's so-called vision or directive.

~PEACE,

se7en

Edited January 27, 2004 by se7en

[Guest A Stranger]

Well, really it is a question of 'why do you like Season Two?' I suppose in many ways. I know a lot of critics (and I agree with this), disliked Season Two because it largely ditched the gritty realism of Season One. The whole season two bleeds with symbolism (which is acceptable as it means there is a lot to analyse in the episodes) but loses that credibility that made Season One such essential television.

It was interesting to note that in a recent poll here, someone (sorry I forgot who), asked what everyone's favourite aspect of the show was. Now given that Millennium Season One is billed as 'Chris Carter's dark drama on the nature of evil' and that Carter cites his reasons for the show as staring down evil and making people confront the kind of society we live in, it was surprising to see the results. No-one, not one person cited the 'study of evil in it's various forms' to be their favourite aspect (except me but I didn't vote). Does that mean that Millennium failed in it's primary objective?

Nevertheless, the show was critically acclaimed in Season One for it's aims and caned in Season Two for abandoning that and drowning the show in angels and symbolism, bizarre humour and tiresome in-jokes to Space, above and Beyond. Things just got out of hand, what with the Millennium Group having access to world-devastating viruses, hit squads, rivalries with neo-Nazi groups. There just wasn't any credibility. The main problem was that all human crimes seemed to be the fault of this 'evil force' according to Morgan and Wong and that wasn't what Carter intimated in Lamentation. Fabricant is not being controlled by the evil force - he is an evil man but in the end he is just as much a victim as anyone else. Season Two has very few examples of this greater evil and when it shows up it is rarely ever as terryifying as in Lamentation. Beware of the Dog has an adequate stab at it with the dogs but 'Monster's' portayal of a demon child is just lame and not frightening at all. The Mikado is one of the only Season Two episodes that has an evil man at the centre of things again. The critics HATED that the show began to start blaming human actions on supernatural forces and I did too. The point was originally to show that evil existed because we created it. I disagree in the strongest terms when the Old Man says that crime is not evil, it's just society. It's all very well to talk of greater powers and true evil but to most people, crime is a very real evil - try telling the victims that it could have been worse!

If they had gone on to show how potent a force this great darkness was then it could have worked. I wanted the Millennium Group to stay as force for good, an informed group of committed people decicated to combating this evil. The whole conspiracy thing they opted for just re-hashed the X-Files as Season Two did in broad strokes anyway. It may not be particularly popular to write things like this but I believe in writing what I think. Millennium was a great show, no doubt about it and it isn't like Season Two doesn't have anything good about it, far from it. But it did fail and it pays to try and understand why it failed in my opinion so 1013 (or anyone else) who tries something similar don't make the same mistakes.

Thanks.

You're not alone here. I agree. The subtle nature of the show and it's exploraton of evil is my favorite aspect. But at the same time I love Morgan and Wong and was able to see they were doing something different and as many fans will atest to, you have to take each year on it's own in order to enjoy it. I loved Morgan and Wong's work on The X-Files and thought they were able to bring some really great things to the MM world. But yeah, the entire "universe" was destoryed in season two. Escpecially when you have demons protrayed the way they are in "Somehow Satan Got Behind Me." This is the same force as in "Lamenatation?!" And I was not very interested in the Group as a psudeo-Syndicate. There could be those same comparisons made to what they became in year two but the lack of religous themes and much more science fiction themes made it too close to what X-Files was doing. And was just way off.

I'm just making broad statements, though. I could probably go through and find exception to every complaint I just made but it would take too long.

[Guest A Stranger]

there was a period of time,and to some extent it still exists,where some fans of S2 just claimed that it's esoteric themes,and what M&W were trying to do,was simply over the heads of the common fans of S1. i found that attitude,and still do whenever i encounter it,to be highly inulting as S1,despite,IMO,being erroniously pegged as a "serial killer of the week",was meticulously resaerched,uncompromising in it's own vision,and featured some of the best brightest writers in all of television,hell in ANY medium,including those by M&W.

Yeah, I agree. The one thing season two was lacking was anything mysterious. To me, it seemed like they took all the subtle themes of season one, Frank protecting his family and the investigation of what "evil" could be, and spelled them out clearly. I mean in "Beware of the Dog," the second episode of that year you have The Old Man out right telling Frank what evil is and how it relates to everything he's seen before. That's a long was from Frank in a darkned room with "the widow of Dr. Ephriam Fabricant" giving him a knowing look. Most people I knew when they saw "Lamenation" were wondering what the hell "the sleep of reason" was refering to.

And as for the cohesivness, I felt that both season one and three were a little rocky at first. Season one mainly becuase I don't think, during some of those early episodes, the staff writers had a clear idea as to what the show as really going to be about and those "serial killer of the week episodes" came about (Kingdom Come, Blood Reletives...)