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Why do you like 'The Hand of Saint Sebastian'?

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Guest ModernDayMoriarty

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Guest ModernDayMoriarty

For a show to succeed it really does need to have some continuity and Season Two just didn't deliver that. It is amazing to my mind, that people can criticise Season Three as being totally unlike Season Two, whilst flagrantly ignoring the fact that the exact same thing happened with Seasons One and Two! The human element is lost disastourously in Season Two in my opinion. If we consider several S1 episodes with this in mind:

Gehenna.

Watch the interrogation scene where Frank questions the boy about the thing that is controlling him. The haunting music, the terror on his face and the blurred images of Clement/Clement-as-Demon flashing by make it one of the most powerful scenes in Millennium.

Dead Letters.

Proof that Morgan and Wong should have been allowed to work on the show if nothing else. If they had done more work like this, Season Two would have been great.

Kingdom Come.

The last scene in the church. Scenes like this just didn't happen after Season One and it's a big loss because it shows exactly what human grief is.

And that's just in the first few, I could have picked say the end of Wild and the Innocent, most of Covenant, Lamentation etc etc.

What does Season Two have to match this?

It's hard to really find any episodes that are as affecting as those but Jose Chung's... has some good moments particularly when he relates the pain he feels as a writer, his terrible loneliness.

I don't mean to get on people's nerves about this because I know the majority here seem to love Season Two but I really think that is selling Season One short. As to Season Three... well I am watching it for the first time now it's on Sci-Fi but I just don't see people's problem with it. I think it's great at the moment, the human stories are back, the Millennium Group is still evil but slightly more believeable now (and yes, it's like the X-Files but they had to do something to explain what M and W did). As to the claims that people who liked Season One 'just can't understand the bigger themes'... well, that is the most insulting statement I have ever heard! I enjoy analysing episodes and can get just as much out of Season One as Two. I would like to write some 'proper' articles for Millennium sometime, I believe you are looking for writers aren't you Seven? I would be happy to contribute if that's possible. I have some examples of my reviews on the X-Files Ratings and Reviews site if you know it and would like to see it before you agree or not. I have written reviews under ModernDayMoriarty on Season One up to 'Beyond the Sea' at the moment.

Anyway, if anyone else would like to defend Season Two, I'm sure we would all be interested to hear about that.

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Guest LauraKrycek
It is amazing to my mind, that people can criticise Season Three as being totally unlike Season Two, whilst flagrantly ignoring the fact that the exact same thing happened with Seasons One and Two! The human element is lost disastourously in Season Two in my opinion.

See, I think that the difference between the mood shifts between the seasons is that season 2 was *good*. Sorry, s3-lovers. The point for me isn't that it changed, it's that it got *bad* and much more cookie-cutter than it used to be. Seasons 1 and 2 challenged things and sprouted new ideas; the shift to s3 took away everything that I'd come to love about the show, and very few episodes reflected that mood that seemed to come over everything as I watched it. By human element, I think I see your meaning; s1 was more, as it has been described, "serial-killer-of-the-week", where s2 dealt much more with angels, demons, spirits and the unknown. If I'm wrong there, please correct me. That's just what I interpreted your statement to mean.

Frankly, I don't really care for those episodes that you named. "Dead Letters", of course, was great. But as for the rest, *especially* "Kingdom Come", they're definitely not among my favorites. Not the worst, but certainly not the best either.

Going from what I interpreted your "human element" as, I'd have to say that maybe why I like s2 better is that I prefer the stories about the (for lack of a better word) supernatural forces, rather than those about evil or diseased humans. Not that I don't like them; I just really enjoy that element of the unknown. That's why my favorite episodes are "Anamnesis", "Midnight of the Century", "The Curse of Frank Black"... they just appeal more to me.

I certainly don't sell s1 short. I thought it was a wonderful beginner to this show. I mean, if all I loved was s2, I think *that* would be selling it short, because that was only 1 season out of 3 long years, and there was a lot more good than just that that came out of that show. I just liked the route they took in its evolution; going more with the stories of Lucy Butler and Dennis Hoffman than those of "Broken World" and "Weeds", both of which I detest. You may argue that s1 was better, but I just don't see it. Good, but definitely second in line to the top.

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Anyway, if anyone else would like to defend Season Two, I'm sure we would all be interested to hear about that.

:thinking_big: Now.....where's my soap-box when I need it?

I hear what you're saying...I realy do. When you back off and look at the big picture, there were abrupt changes in tone and theme in each of the 3 seasons. But, for me, the change between season 1 & 2 was more of a natural change in the caracter's lives. In season 1, we got to know Frank, and what he was making all these sacrifiecs for. We grew to know and love him and his family, and went on the journey with him. Then, at the end of season 1 and the beginning of season 2, there was a turning point. Now, to protect his family, he must leave his family. We get to know who FRANK is better. You start to see this personal journey that he's on, and I think THAT'S what appeales to people about season 2. People can relate, and they're rooting for him, as he tries to save the world, and whold his OWN world together at the same time. In season 3, he's lost Catherine, the one who had kept him sane, through it all, and we hate to see anyone loose someone the love, and suffer like that.

Anyway, that's only a very short version of what I think about the 3 seasons, and I can't cover it all in 1 post, so..... :bye-big:

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Guest A Stranger
Dead Letters.

Proof that Morgan and Wong should have been allowed to work on the show if nothing else. If they had done more work like this, Season Two would have been great.

I agree, I love that episode but I really think there was only so much that could be done. M&W did some amazing human evil stories (The Thin White Line) but when given the task as executive producers, they probably realized they only had only so many of those stories in them. For every great "Dead Letters" there are double the half-assed "Dead Letters" (Broken World, Kingdom Come, Weeds...).

In defense of the dramatic element of the show I think it was always there. It just depends if you bought into the world they created. "The Time is Now," "The Mikado," and "Lumiary" just to name a few captured "the human element" but just in a different way.

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In defense of the dramatic element of the show I think it was always there. It just depends if you bought into the world they created. "The Time is Now," "The Mikado," and "Lumiary" just to name a few captured "the human element" but just in a different way.

I totaly agree.... :yes_big::thumbsup_big:

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I love the Milkado and Luminary is another great episode. Luminary was a nice departure from the usual stories being told in season 2 in Millennium. Luminary was about the journey for Frank and the person he was looking for.

Be Seeing You,

David Blackwell

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Guest ModernDayMoriarty

By the 'human element', I mean believeable characters, well played and that raise our awareness. Morgan and Wong are talented writers and they do some fine character studies in Season One but in Season Two? Hmm, I just don't see it. I have long maintained that whilst they are very good at showing tragedy and suffering, at making villains that aren't all evil but feel compelled to act etc, they are not very skilled at all in depicting true evil. Rarely do they ever produce villains that are as horrific or as sinister as other writers. Their episodes have a dreamlike, fairytale quality about them usually. Now, I don't mind this but sometimes you need to have that terror, the darkness. Chris Carter when he's on form can produce this, Howard Gordon from the X-Files could produce it and occasionaly Chip Johanessen has too. Too much of Morgan and Wong's style is just sickly. As to Kingdom Come, it may not be a great episode but the ending is magnificent, a truly searing portrait of a broken man. I will say incidentally that whilst I still don't really like Weeds, I have come to like more than I originally did.

The supernatural element gives distance from emotion and feeling. The thought that it isn't the people's fault because the devil really did make them do it just dilutes any tension or horror because it is such an old, cop-out reason. The differences that Season Two were simply so different that it was like a different show. From the heartbreaking ending to say 'Wild and the Innocent' to the ridiculous 'family bleeding over dinner' in The Fourth Horseman (or the time is now I forget). Season Two had far too many improbable stories to credit it being in the same world as Season One. When I had spent so long watching Frank deal with normal people dealing with their monstrous normal lives, I just couldn't reconcile this washed out, blasted vision of humanity with the jangly music and colourful sights of Season Two. I much prefer the vision of Good (or Law most likely) presented in Powers, Principalities to the angels etc that are presented in Season Two. Whilst I'm talking about angels actually, Midnight of the Century... I don't understand the fascination with this episode either. The reconcilment with his father is just a poor man's take on many of the season one intimate talks. They supposedly resolve years of hatred in one night! If it was that easy it would have happened already surely and where was Frank's brother during all of that? He seemed curiously absent during the flashback and wasn't mentioned at all!

I do appreciate people sticking up for Season Two and I can see several episodes as proof that the Season was worth making but overall I just can't stand it. No need for apology I know, each to his own. I must disagree most strongly again however with the assertion that Season Three is terrible. I can't believe that if you watch the Season again with an open mind you could still be of that opinion - there are simply too many good episodes!

Anyway, cheers again.

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By the 'human element', I mean believeable characters, well played and that raise our awareness. Morgan and Wong are talented writers and they do some fine character studies in Season One but in Season Two? Hmm, I just don't see it. I have long maintained that whilst they are very good at showing tragedy and suffering, at making villains that aren't all evil but feel compelled to act etc, they are not very skilled at all in depicting true evil. Rarely do they ever produce villains that are as horrific or as sinister as other writers. Their episodes have a dreamlike, fairytale quality about them usually. Now, I don't mind this but sometimes you need to have that terror, the darkness. Chris Carter when he's on form can produce this, Howard Gordon from the X-Files could produce it and occasionaly Chip Johanessen has too. Too much of Morgan and Wong's style is just sickly. As to Kingdom Come, it may not be a great episode but the ending is magnificent, a truly searing portrait of a broken man. I will say incidentally that whilst I still don't really like Weeds, I have come to like more than I originally did.

The supernatural element gives distance from emotion and feeling. The thought that it isn't the people's fault because the devil really did make them do it just dilutes any tension or horror because it is such an old, cop-out reason. The differences that Season Two were simply so different that it was like a different show. From the heartbreaking ending to say 'Wild and the Innocent' to the ridiculous 'family bleeding over dinner' in The Fourth Horseman (or the time is now I forget). Season Two had far too many improbable stories to credit it being in the same world as Season One. When I had spent so long watching Frank deal with normal people dealing with their monstrous normal lives, I just couldn't reconcile this washed out, blasted vision of humanity with the jangly music and colourful sights of Season Two. I much prefer the vision of Good (or Law most likely) presented in Powers, Principalities to the angels etc that are presented in Season Two. Whilst I'm talking about angels actually, Midnight of the Century... I don't understand the fascination with this episode either. The reconcilment with his father is just a poor man's take on many of the season one intimate talks. They supposedly resolve years of hatred in one night! If it was that easy it would have happened already surely and where was Frank's brother during all of that? He seemed curiously absent during the flashback and wasn't mentioned at all!

I do appreciate people sticking up for Season Two and I can see several episodes as proof that the Season was worth making but overall I just can't stand it. No need for apology I know, each to his own. I must disagree most strongly again however with the assertion that Season Three is terrible. I can't believe that if you watch the Season again with an open mind you could still be of that opinion - there are simply too many good episodes!

Anyway, cheers again.

......well. you better watch out MDM because if you say much more i may have to adopt you! :laugh_big: ...seriously,though,while i'm not quite as critical of S2 as you are,for me it's downfall into melodrama,and later near-parody, came around the time of owls/roosters-(which i enjoy inspite of a small part of my brain going "no-no! this is NOT the MM-group as C.C. envisioned!").

...it's kind of strange actually,as many times i've had to grit my teeth over the heaps of praise about S2,especialy the final 1/3,and the inexplicable flogging of S3. but grit my teeth i did,for the most part,as that's what this board is here for;to discuss MM. But i'd be an absolute liar if i did not say that i've enjoyed,very much,not just what you wrote,but "how" you wrote it. ...you touched upon a few points that i had never really thought of-(or if i did,it must have been a long time ago)- i always figured that,besides the small group of frineds i know "in person",that we could not possibly be the only one's who felt the way we did not only in regards to the eventual non-direction in S2 but also the two-part "end of thw world" finale and especialy regards Season-3!

...without getting into it really deep-(i have a few emails i gotta answer)-i will say that to my mind Lance Henriksen's portrayal of Frank Black in S3 was perhaps one of the singular acheivements in acting i've seen of man disillusioned,on the edge,in depseration;a man not to be messed with or played with. I'm not talking about the eps themselves,of which most are brilliant drama/suspense,but just Henriksens portrayal through-out the entire season. -(i don't know if you are a customer of ours or have them on tape,but either way,if you watch S3 in a short period of time you are left,or "I" am left,emotionaly exhausted and spent.) -the addition of Henriksen agreeing to let them gradually use less hair dye and less makeup and/or a type of makeup that actually brought out and accented the lines on his face,all just added to the performance, and showed his lack of vanity about his looks. I don't know about you but when the transformation was more or less complete after "borrowed time" i think the look actually made him look fierce and resolved,more so than at any other time in the series. and....and....oh i better stop now. :wink:

...in reference to your other post,"YES",i would be very interested in you contributing to the book. -(i'm hoping,desparately,to be able to represent a wide array of P.O.V.s for each episode as i can;i want the guide to be as balanced as possible in opinion and content )- Perhaps you could email or P.M. me so we can hash out what i need from you,for legal purposes,and to discuss your contributions you wish to make for the guide-book. -(it seems i'm pretty much homebound for a while so P.M. or email whenever you can or want.

I look forward to hearing from you and also to reading more of your posts! -(if i recall correctly you've been a member for sometime now,and i am VERY glad you decided to join-in if that's the case. We have a lot of very opinionated,sharp,well-spoken members here. We are very lucky.)

~TAKE CARE,

se7en :ouro:

Edited by se7en
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Guest chrisnu

You bring up very valid points; in my opinion also, Season Two (for the most part) lacked the human element and especially the subtlety Season One had. However, there are (in my opinion) some great character studies on Frank in Season Two; "The Curse Of Frank Black", "Luminary", and in part "The Mikado" come to mind. There was also an interesting sub-plot in "Siren" in which Frank imagine life without the Group that I found interesting. (The only part of the episode I liked, actually!) What I enjoyed most about Season Two were the different concepts and ideas brought up. Each episode brought up some new topics for evaluation and discussion. That being said, the individual episodes are probably greater than the whole of its parts, and I do agree that the last 1/3 of the season saw a decline of quality, particularly in the last five episodes. Season Two of MLM is probably comparable to Season Five of The X-Files; there are some excellent individual hours of television, but the season as a whole lacked direction. It's still my favorite season though, despite its downfalls. Additionally, despite its (and the other seasons') downfalls, MLM is still one of the best shows out there. :ouro:

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Guest A Stranger
By the 'human element', I mean believeable characters, well played and that raise our awareness. Morgan and Wong are talented writers and they do some fine character studies in Season One but in Season Two? Hmm, I just don't see it. I have long maintained that whilst they are very good at showing tragedy and suffering, at making villains that aren't all evil but feel compelled to act etc, they are not very skilled at all in depicting true evil. Rarely do they ever produce villains that are as horrific or as sinister as other writers. Their episodes have a dreamlike, fairytale quality about them usually. Now, I don't mind this but sometimes you need to have that terror, the darkness. Chris Carter when he's on form can produce this, Howard Gordon from the X-Files could produce it and occasionaly Chip Johanessen has too. Too much of Morgan and Wong's style is just sickly. As to Kingdom Come, it may not be a great episode but the ending is magnificent, a truly searing portrait of a broken man. I will say incidentally that whilst I still don't really like Weeds, I have come to like more than I originally did.

The supernatural element gives distance from emotion and feeling. The thought that it isn't the people's fault because the devil really did make them do it just dilutes any tension or horror because it is such an old, cop-out reason. The differences that Season Two were simply so different that it was like a different show. From the heartbreaking ending to say 'Wild and the Innocent' to the ridiculous 'family bleeding over dinner' in The Fourth Horseman (or the time is now I forget). Season Two had far too many improbable stories to credit it being in the same world as Season One. When I had spent so long watching Frank deal with normal people dealing with their monstrous normal lives, I just couldn't reconcile this washed out, blasted vision of humanity with the jangly music and colourful sights of Season Two. I much prefer the vision of Good (or Law most likely) presented in Powers, Principalities to the angels etc that are presented in Season Two. Whilst I'm talking about angels actually, Midnight of the Century... I don't understand the fascination with this episode either. The reconcilment with his father is just a poor man's take on many of the season one intimate talks. They supposedly resolve years of hatred in one night! If it was that easy it would have happened already surely and where was Frank's brother during all of that? He seemed curiously absent during the flashback and wasn't mentioned at all!

I do appreciate people sticking up for Season Two and I can see several episodes as proof that the Season was worth making but overall I just can't stand it. No need for apology I know, each to his own. I must disagree most strongly again however with the assertion that Season Three is terrible. I can't believe that if you watch the Season again with an open mind you could still be of that opinion - there are simply too many good episodes!

Anyway, cheers again.

I got to thinking about what you're talking about. I think I have a better idea of "the human element"you're speaking of. And I can't think of many in season two but in season three, they are all over the place. Times when the acting is very real and very intense. And if using this as a gauge of how good of a drama it is, seaon three far surpasses two.

The Innocents -- Frank's theropy video/ Frank confronts Catherine's father.

TEOTWAWKI -- The conclusion where the father admits to killing his own son.

Skull and Bones -- Frank interogates the writer/ Emma learns a lesson from Frank in the conclusion.

Through a Glass Darkly -- The entire episode!

Omerta -- Frank and Jorden discuss Katherine's death.

Borrowed Time -- Frank pleads to God to save Jordan/ Frank confronts Samiel

Collateral Damage -- Peter comes to Frank for help "Yeah, but I'm asking you."

The Sound of Snow -- Frank grieves over his dead wife with his dead wife.

Antipas -- Frank and Lucy in the conclusion.

Matryoshka -- Emma and Lilly contemplat the A-Bomb/ the ending "Twilight Time" also note that a 50's pop song is used but not ironically.

Bardo Thodal -- Frank and dying Buddihst monk.

Seven and One -- Frank w/therapist.

Nostalgia -- Again, the entire episode is real, tense and pure drama.

Via Dolorosa -- Frank looks for evidence alone, this portrayal is much more rooted in what was Chris Carter's original idea, he is working on expierence and most importantly imagining what the killer was thinking.

Goodbye to all That -- Peter comes clean with Frank, Frank and Lucas Barr confrontation, Frank escapes with Jordan.

It wasn't hard at all to find these type of dramatic elements in season three, all I needed was an episode guide and spare time. :wink: Thinking over all that has got me agreeing with Seven about how crazy that year was!

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