Why do you like 'The Hand of Saint Sebastian'?

[Guest chrisnu]

Personally, I think Hollis and Baldwin didn't become anything more than 'scriptwriting-for-dummies' archetypes until after the seasons half-way mark.

Same here! Emma's character really started to pick up around "Darwin's Eye" and "Bardo Thodol". I can't thinking, "You can't make me care about you now!"

[Guest ZeusFaber]

I know this is a very old topic, but...

It goes without saying that an episode some people love, others will hate - one man's masterpiece is another man's 'Thirteen Years Later...' Certain episodes however strike me by their ability to polarise opinion and for their difference to my opinion. Let me explain that apparently arrogant statement: When watching both the X-Files and Millennium, I find that the viewers are generally speaking, a pretty smart bunch who know what is really good and what is really, really bad. So it is always strange when an episode comes along that is either a) loved by everyone except a small few who consider it unutterably awful, or b) hated by everyone except a few who etc etc. An example from the X-Files would be 'Aubrey' which I loved completely as did all my friends, but it seems to have received a shrug of indifference at best on-line...

So, 'The Hand of Saint Sebastian' then... The Millennial Abyss gives this 5 out of 5, nearly everyone I have seen online seems to really love it to bits and consider it a great episode for explaining the Millennium Group (amongst other things). Now what I want to know (and this is honest curiosity), is why you like it so much? What makes it a great episode for you because quite frankly I find it hard to watch at all, let alone consider it a great episode. I'll start what I hope will be a civilsed discussion on this (I really just want to know) by saying why I dislike it so much.

Well, it seems fairly obvious to me that Morgan and Wong wanted to go for an Indiana Jones type feel here. The heroes running around trying to find religious artifacts whilst dodging the dastardly hun (germans) along the way. Light hearted japery mixed with serious religious concerns. I will come right out and say that I have no problem with this IN IT'S PLACE. I love the Indy films but this is Millennium and it is also set in the modern times, not the 30's. The caricatured Germans with their clipped, shrill behaviour and smart uniforms just seem ridiculously stereotyped and not a little insulting really. Killers that walk around wearing trenchcoats and hats like the very worst of B-list thrillers and it only got worse after this episode with the preposterous Nazi storyline in Owls/Roosters.

I just cannot engage with such exaggerated nonsense. Hired assassins, cars blowing up and what about that German cop? Oh dear, oh dear. In a 'joke' that rivals the infamous 'Town Sherrif' debacle from the otherwise superior 'Beware of the Dog', this character was very ill-advised. Henrikson looked like he wanted the earth to open up and swallow him every time he opened his mouth to spew another silly cop show phrase. The character served no real purpose, he wasn't funny in any way and lowered the tone which was already rather low. This is futher diminished by the highly improbable and actually quite idiotic thread about the on-line sex chats which they use to find out about the Hand's location. The chances of the password being broken like that are slim at best and nevertheless, it was a trashy and pointless aspect to introduce - seemingly just to give roedecker something to do (who was just as irritating as he usually was).

There are problems that I have with the whole premise of Watts searching for the Hand as well. The episode correctly states that until now, Watts has not seemed to be an overly superstitious guy at all. His searching for the Hand does seem rather out of character. The problem I have is that Watts is supposedly a Rooster, that is he believes the end will come at the Millennium because it has been foretold. Now, that just doesn't seem to track, he is either spiritually minded or he isn't. The Season One Watts seemed much more like Frank: a non-believer generally but commited to doing the right thing. This episode appears to support that but then breaks it right down just a few episodes later. Are we supposed to believe that he has 'found God' because of his finding the body (which is very poorly handled by the way - fall into a bog and hey look! it's the Hand of Saint Sebastian, what a lucky find...) The whole idea of the religious relics with super powers is a poor one (for Millennium to be using) and at least the Hand didn't seem to have any of those. But neither does the quest seem very hard or particularly worthwhile anyway.

Aside from all the other problems I have (and I hope I have conveyed that they are a real impediment to my ever liking this episode), I do not consider it to be an episode that reveals much of anything about the Millennium Group as people have claimed it does. Intimating that the group is very, very old and concerned with the idea of the Millennium is nothing really new. Okay, it is news that the Group is that old but otherwise? Their cultish aspects and philosophies (which I still think Frank would have rejected outright after his talk with the Old Man) have been adequately explained in 'Beware of the Dog'. This is a trashy, poorly conceived attempt to do an action thriller in Millennium, it wastes the potenntial that placing Watts more centrally in the storyline affords and has Frank trailing around not doing much of anything. I will re-iterate that Henrikson looks embarassed to be in this episode as he seems to be on acting autopilot in the episode's sillier scenes. I think that if the supposedly humourous parts were excised and the episode was a two parter (for God's sake, Owls/Roosters got to be a two-parter and that had no good ideas really!), it stood a chance of being okay. Generally though, the whole treasure hunting thing just didn't for me at all, neither did the Tom Clancyesque techno thriller moments that are more in evidence in Owls/Roosters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My thunderous applaus. I absolutely agree 100% wholeheartedly, word for word.

I never thought I would hear someone with the exact same views on this issue as my own. It is somewhat refreshing, and more than a little surprising, to find them expressed here by someone else -- and so eloquently and thoroughly too.

Sorry to bump up the past, but as I was looking through the old topics and came across this, I couldn't resist.

[Guest noonien soong]

There are problems that I have with the whole premise of Watts searching for the Hand as well. The episode correctly states that until now, Watts has not seemed to be an overly superstitious guy at all. His searching for the Hand does seem rather out of character. The problem I have is that Watts is supposedly a Rooster, that is he believes the end will come at the Millennium because it has been foretold. Now, that just doesn't seem to track, he is either spiritually minded or he isn't. The Season One Watts seemed much more like Frank: a non-believer generally but commited to doing the right thing. This episode appears to support that but then breaks it right down just a few episodes later. Are we supposed to believe that he has 'found God' because of his finding the body (which is very poorly handled by the way - fall into a bog and hey look! it's the Hand of Saint Sebastian, what a lucky find...) The whole idea of the religious relics with super powers is a poor one (for Millennium to be using) and at least the Hand didn't seem to have any of those. But neither does the quest seem very hard or particularly worthwhile anyway.

About Watts, then this is how I see it.

He is a Rooster, and his belief and actions only support this in my oppinion. He sees science as a powerful tool for the Powerful, but nothing more/less. The Owls sees science as The way and path above anything else, which goes way beyond being a mere tool. They acknowledges religion as useful, and they recognize the Rooster faction as valid and equal in ends, but not means.

Watts' evolution over the Seasons is not originating from disbelief or doubt in his faith, but disbelief and doubt about the people with similar faith (Millennium group in general) and how they translate the way of the future differently than he does. It is a healthy doubt, which I believe comes indirectly from Frank, because he lost him as a candidate, when Watts was overconfident about Frank joining the group.

[Guest chagrin]

I cannot say for sure the specifice reason I like this episode so much, but I go back to it all the time. I enjoy Peter's search for "...Who we are" and it has some very comical moments that fight away my tendency to tear up" and alos I am a fan of historical stuff, so I liked that part of it (even though it was mostly fictional history). I never have been able to take "Bookman" from Seinfeld seriously in his role at the beginning as a Group Elder though.

So I guess it's based upon the search for our history, the group's history, that I liked the most, and the music was extremely well crafted.

[Guest Jim McLean]

It's funny how vast the shift is between season one and season two, and while I can see season two as a rational progression of the direction of season one, its lack of subtlety does jar. From having the original question of whether Evil is governed from environmental factors or from something more pure, season two seems to pretty much ignores the question and offers a statement. Evil is something pure, and suddenly, the show's ambiguity is lost.

Again, to be fair, this can also be seen to work in the show's ethos. From Franks fairly humdrum killer-of-the-week, as an arm's length consultant for the Millennium group, he is now being brought closer to the series' overall theme of the millennium, and like any story, the man's every day life (be it as twisted as Franks) now takes on a new meaning which is relevant to the tale thats being told.

In such a way, I can accept the drastic changes that only Paper Dove managed to slightly hint at before the transition (the FBI's remarks about the MG).

Without that overriding idea of the whole of season one being almost a first act an to a larger theme, season two jars quite dramatically. It may THINK it's dealing with more subtle mythological forces, but it deals with said mythological forces in a far less subtle way. "Beware of the Dog" sees a far more X-Files approach to the mythology which I personally think works with X-Files, not Millennium. By having the mythology take second base to a wider tale - as in season one - stories can resolve properly without events being left ambiguously.

Another issue is the subtlety of Franks gift which turns from ambiguity (is it insightful profiling or a power unknown?) into something a little more superhero? It's funny, given we have Morgan has a jab at the use of the gift in season one as being narratively lazy (which I never saw, given I always took it as a more of a profiling instinct that a higher power), yet in season two it seems to lose its ambiguity, and stories now hinge on its existence. Suddenly, everyone seems to be referencing Frank's gift while before it was an unspoken insight. Again, we can accept this as Franks gift becomes a more spoken relevance to himself and - from Catherine's perspective - a greater threat to reference as she feels more and more as if the gift is as much to blame as Frank for their split.

Okay, so where does that bring us on "The Hand.."? Well back to Peter, who we see a shift in not so much his personality, but the show's insight into him and the Millennium group. Again, as part of a larger story, we can accept this, "act two" brings us into the central group and its relationship with Millennium, that itself will bring greater insight. However, the transition between season one and season two is SO bold, that you could mistake these different sides we're seeing to Peter as being two different characters.

I think as soon as you accept that Peter has ALWAYS been like this, and that we are merely seeing a side he is now more open to Frank AND the audience, his motivations in "The Hand" DO make more sense; he is that bridge between Frank and the MG, and as such doesn't quite see eye to eye with either, be it Frank's practicality or the MG's faith.

In this sense "The Hand" works really well. Is it Indiana Jones? I never got the association. Throw aside the mythology, and it plays more like a conspiracy akin to the X-Files, not something I'm over keen with since Frank is such a vulnerable character, his proactive actions against armed people always seems a bit silly (though very consistent with season one - one of the few things that is).

The depiction of Germans? I didn't see it as being insulting. I've known a few Germans, and a great deal of Europeans. You do get people in Europe who do watch a lot of American TV, and will catch the more "colourful" aspects; I don't see the police character as being anything more than a guy who has a chance to have fun with the slang and pop culture he's learned in his second tongue with the Americans, which, given it gives him more association with the American audience, and defines his character in a quick and none time consuming way, it works twofold.

I think what I like about "The Hand", than unlike some of season two and the "X-Files", there is no real heavy handed mystical revelation at the end. The hand's legend doesn't play a massive factor in the resolution, and it works as a - dare I say it - Holy Grail for Peter's focus, more than anything else.

What season two does offer - to it's curse as well as its blessing - is diversity. I do miss the consistency of season one in which you knew pretty much what you'd get, but the bonus in season two is that you really don't know where each show will take you, and when you are dealing with a previously fairly focused format, that can be quite invaluable for a show to grow.

So bare in mind I've only watched half of season two (and none of season three) when you reply, these are my musings from the half way point, and personally, I found "The Hand" far better that "Single Blade of Grass", "Beware of the Dog" and "Sense and Antisense" in finding a less "Millennnium" like format which borrows from other genres yet doesn't feel quite as stolen as say, "Sense and Antisense" or "Beware of the Dog" does from the X-Files.

A solid, interestingly paced story which fits the evolution of the show, giving reason to season two's intent and does intent force the viewer to accept that the changes in the seasons do have a purpose.

[Guest Laurent.]

This played like a bad episode of Scooby Doo, all that was missing was the Mystery Van and Scooby snacks.

Hehehe! Bull's eye!

[Guest Nekurat]

In my opinion the hand of st. sebastian is worst myth-arc Millennium episode. Someting has gone quite wrong. The leap of faith thing is cool but mere storywriting is... well... it's a disaster. Good ideas gone bad somewhere along the way.

[model217]

While I agree that Hand of St. Sebastian was poorly executed,it still is an important set up for Peter's actions in the group. I have to admit I kind of like Hand the more I watch it.

[Guest JanieJones]

this episode is a steaming pile of poo but it is watchable because there is the eye candy of Peter Watts to munch on for 44 minutes. yum.