why i HATE "the 4th horseman/the time is now"....

[Guest Wellington]

Hello

My opinion about turning the Group into a kind of cult is that it would have given the Group the aura it truly lacked.

I was pleased with the idea of a consulting organization dealing with crimes but it was a bit flat. What was that: privates, retirement club for bored FBI agents? It needed more. The facts Watts was sharing fewer or no information as Frank grew closer to membership added some salt, and I kept wondering why is that? Why do crime consultants try and rise walls of secrets. And this receipe was good in X-Files too: the less you are told, the more you imagine. The Group needed to have its background and its hierarchy explained.

Sorry if I do not have a good memory about the order of the episods, but I tend to see MM as a hole in order to catch more meaning for me. The great misinterpretation lies in Frank's comparing it to a cult. It was clearly for me a heated reaction made explicitely to cast a shadow on the Group. To me, it sounded like those who compare fully grown religions to sects, just because they despise, hate or fear them. Please catch my meaning, I do not try to offend any one and I only have this example in mind. It is just a trick with words, and in fact I think it was more intended as an insult than anything else. So we have this scene of the blood oath, of latin verses, of wax candles, of patron-apprentice relationship. Having been involved myself in some kind of (light - be reassured - and 2 century old) initiatic group, I saw it only as an initiation and not as an act of faith. And indeed, it could be an act of faith depending of the initiated one! The example of Lara Means is exactly that: she chose to see the complement of her belief in what the Group represented for her, and so she added a touch of mystic fervor to the ceremony and to her admittance into the Group. This is the path Frank decided not to follow. I like those episode involving both Lara and Frank: we have two candidates, sceptic ones with firm ideas of the what and why of the evil they see in their job. They are no different until they have to deal with the Group in emergency. Lara lets herself be persuaded that she can find more answers to her doubts, but Frank seems not too eager to see the Group as the solution instead of a part of the problem. Put me in the candidate situation and all I would see would be traditions, respects, and duties, the origins of which lying in History and society (and why not?). Religious facts may be the core of the Group, but it is no more than a laicist gathering. Indeed, there does not seem to be elitism in the choice of candidates (remember that Sherrif who was too deeply involved with his job to maintain candidacy?). And I think too that a traditional initiation is a way to remember the past without neglecting the present or future. When a group is founded upon something clear, it is the duty of members to remember that something. If not, then it can turn business and not mission. After all, signing a contract is the modern form of initiation... If I deeply share the philosophy of the gathering, it could turn more like a way of living and thinking, but in MM there did not seem to be any sort of pressure for that.

However, there is a clearly religious background. The birth of the Group is timed with that of Christianity. As someone said, early christianity was plagued by division and it was reflected on the Group by the introduction of the Family, which diverted from secularity to enter clandestinity and the merovingian/Magdalena line (if I do not mix wrong references to other pseudo-mystic beliefs). The Hand of St Sebastian was also a good example of what consequences the religious origins can imply: rival factions fighting each other for belief (call that legend or superstition). The post-Renaissance world was more efficient in the division, with that of the Roosters and the Owls. However organisation dominates, for they managed to work together, even if only to check each other. This existence of both Roosters and Owls is great but its involvement annoys me deeply. We have on one hand biblic-oriented members and on the other hand science-oriented members. But both are running for the fragment of the Cross as an element of power. So it means that even the more pragmatic members are living with the original beliefs. And showing that nazism was chasing the same kind of power is not really reassuring. As Frank, I could not help but doubt of the real goals of the Group. Being a laicist organisation does not prevent its members to be headed by fanatics, and that is the point.

Peter Watts is a very good character when it comes to faith and belief. His involvement with the Group deals with his will to find a "why" for evil. He put his faith in what the Group offered him, he accepted that as his truth since he lost his own. I guess this kind of member is very convenient for hardline leaders: they convey a message that is not false (for it is the pillar of the Group) thus finding themselves reasons for any action the Group may make. Peter persuaded Lara, and Frank made Peter see the way secularity perverted the Group. And when the pillar was not safe any more, it was time for a bullet in the head.

But there was a bad choice in the plot. I think then that the Group was not intended to be depicted as a cult (it took long to explain and is incomplete). I did not like at all when Peter predicted the earthquake and when it occured. I think it was a mistake. I liked the way members can put their faith in the philosophy behind the Group. I liked it because there was never any explicit proof of their being right or wrong. There was no difference between Roosters and Owls for none gained any sign showing their choice was the right one. The plot did not need the earthquake part. Unless to show by counter-example that true faith does not need facts. Then it would go against Peter, but was not developped.

Now is time to sum up for those who did not fall asleep on that ! I think that despite its religious origins, the Group has no more tie to them than what its member can give. And I think too that such a group needs traditional initiations in order to keep on tracks. What is next is whatever the member will do and under the rule of its leader. The structure of the hierarchy is well defined: the Old Man, keeper of the "wisdom" of the Group is detached and does not seem aware of everything the Older and its board can do or think. It is a kind of church-state separation.

Thanks for your patience!

Regards

[Guest Faustus]

While I appreciate the depth and the complexity of your conclusions, I have difficulty with the idea that the group is 'cult-like' but not a 'cult'. It seems to be the whole premise of the Owls/Roosters arc was to not only show the depth of the group, but also to reveal to Frank that they were more than he first thought. With the iniation ceremony, etc it seems the closest analogy to it is the Freemasons with their mystical elements and secular concerns. And I imagine, although this is only sopposition, that there are the more religious minded still in the Masons.

Then again there are the more realistic resons for the whole iniation scene. Morgan and Wong went "Yeah, cults are pretty cool. So is Latin. This will make a cool scene for the episode". The whole scene has so many elements of popular ceremony (Latin chanting, blood letting, etc) that it was bound to invoke certain reactions from the audience. I think it was designed, to a degree, to villify the group.

And then again there is the wacky change of writers to think about.

But like I said, cool post. Very indepth and a pleasure to read.

Faustus  

[Guest Wellington]

Thanks for the nice comments...  :)

Indeed you are right saying that the impact of this kind of ceremony on the screen is exactly what was intended by the script team. Making a show implies creating a lot of appeal, and this mysterious aura crosses references to lots of hermetic gatherings or traditions. I guess too that they wanted to make it appear very Masonic in the profan way: I am quite sure that free masons did not find anything offending, still it made imagination run fast! I was at first tempted to make analogy with FM but it seemed too slipery and I could not have make it without justifying FM in the process, which would have been way off-topic. However, this appearing closeness is pertinent in some ways. Most notably, the Group takes time to properly evaluate its candidates. Thus it makes sure that the final part of any individual involvement will be a success. I think this final part is embrassing the philosophy, the roots and the goals (at least those which can be revealed to a new member) of the Group in order not to endanger itself. And I think while typing this that the evil in the Group lies in faithfulness of the members. What do we know about former members, or even defecting members? What are the conditions for a member to quit without a bullet in his head? All the Group is weird. It is an enterprise, a commercial one with employees equiped with business cards. But it is also a discreet society. I do not think that such thing can last long in the real world.

I really cannot see it as a cult, because although it seems to require total implication of its members as well as a kind of blind faith, I understand it as being very hermetic inside itself. They need operative members ready to secure the structure of the Group before the members themselves (like in Hand of St Sebastian, where MillenniuM chases MillenniuM). There we have a mafia-like organisation, whatever the beliefs inside. Some members have a knowledge that others have not. And other can even use it. Where I cannot see any further is whether the main goal is to protect the integrity of the Group (hardly because of two rival factions) or the very mission of the Group (which, unfortunately, was not revealed). The priority is the interests of MillenniuM. Faith here is a kind of motivation for not-in-the-secret members. Watts may have seem very high-placed and influent, but I am pretty sure that his faith in the Group placed him right in the position of a pawn easy to move by senior executives. Did he sorted it out at the end of S3? I guess in fact that the Group has mere human assets: where people can find answers, other can find access to power and how to use it. Maybe I may scale down the plot of the whole series, but it may have been centered around the rush for power of the Roosters and the Owls more than around millennial violence. Maybe Frank was right all the way, guessing that an "end of the world" would be made up in order for some to gain total power. I think that, with our modern ways of living, the modern incarnation of the Group is far less mystic than its incarnation before the first millennium. Maybe that very first millennium was what made members understand that what they felt was their mission was nothing but inspired poetry, but made them feel as well that they could build something more by keeping the Group and its beliefs alive.

But I am slowly drifting in the realms of the What Ifs about the series! I would add finaly that I really enjoyed the virtual 4th season. The way the plot was resolved was quite compatible with how I wished it to be.

Regards

[Guest]

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..........it's intelligent,PASSIONATE conversation like this that all of us were hoping would happen here as we were working on this forum,and so far it's exceeded my wildest expectations. not that intelligent discourse would happen,but how FAST it happened! it feels like some gigantic x-mas present for me!  you guys and gals are friggin great.

                   ~this is a dream come true.seriously  

                                 ~DAVE    

[voidprime]

I liked the seson 2 ender and I like how the writers incorporated what happened in season 2 into season 3.   And I agree with everyone how the X-Files episode, "Millenium".  is a slap-in-the-face to Millenium fans and contradicts everything known about the Millenium group especially the two parter "Owls/Roosters".   FOX should have wrapped up some more of the story elements by doing a fourth season even if it was a short season.   And the season 3 episode, "Sound of Snow",  was a good follow up to Catherine's death and the season 2 ender.  Sound of Snow was one of my favorite episodes of Millenium.   Some season 3 episodes felt like season 2 episodes.  Have a better one.

Be Seeing You,

David Blackwell

ENTERLINE:

(entertainment articles, rants, and reviews)

[Guest Mr. Ected Hostility]

Am I the only one who thought the sci-fi elements were much more prevelant in the third season? This was my main problem with that year. This was probably a huge part of the X-Files comparisons. The sci-fi elements of "The Fourth Horseman/ The Time is Now" were downplayed and there was more of an apocolytic slant on them. They took out all the supernatural/religious references in season three and it was kind of strange. "The Innocents", "Exegesis", "Collateral Damage", "The Sound of Snow", "Matyroshka","Via Dolorosa", "Goodbye to All That" all had a weird sci-fi/technology gone bad angel which was much fartehr off the original premise, I think, than the virus in the seacond season.

[Guest]

........if anything i think S3 was a "more" spiritual season than either S1/2. NOT religious,just spritual.  i honestly never undertood the comparison to S3 with x-files. yes,i'm biased because it's my fav year but i just do not see it.

......it seemed many screemed 'X-FILES' after frank was quasi-parterned with emma,which was,i think,unfair to both the writers and the actors. in my view,and i loved the x-files,it did not have one tenth the heart and spirit of MM.....IN ANY SEASON!    

....... S3 appealed to me so much at that time,and now, not neccessarily just on content but on the whole vibe of it. it seemed to have an almost dreamlike quality to it,and that could have been on purpose as the majority of the stories seemed to be taking place through frank's eyes or how he saw it. he was a shattered.desperate man,unsure of himself in his new life with jordan and exposing the MM-group. that tinged with the overwhelming sense of desparation he felt toward keeping jordan safe,and the absolute determination TO NOT GIVE UP was riveting to me from the first episode of S3. and it was that sort of trippy-dreamlike haze that struck a major emotional chord with me and where i was at that time of my life.  

.....i guess it's all in how each person views this topic but i found S3 to be spiritual in the way that S1 was. i was no fan of the in your face religious fanaticism in S2 and found S1/3 to have a much better way of addressing religious/spritiutal issues/feelings,i.e. it was subtle,it was there if you looked for it,it could add to  certain episodes,like "antipas"/saturn dreaming..."/seven and one",etc. if you wanted it too. certainly the symbolism was everywhere,but it was more non-denominational than in S2.

        ~the eps that DID feel a bit like x-files eps to me were: S2:"sense and antisense","the time is now"-(i groaned when peter picked up up that "morely" cigarette butt,enter....what...CANCER-MAN???),S3:"human essance".  and of course that sad sh*t-log known on the x-files as "millennium"

                   ~i really enjoy both getting my views across and reading others opinions or takes on this whole issue. i love it!!!

              ~happy holidays and welcome to the group!

                                DAVE  

[Guest Mr. Ected Hostility]

I agree with you on the lack of subtly in season two. And I liked season three, a lot actually. And I did like the direction they took it. But the quality just wasn't there. It was really sloppy. It had it's moments but it felt like it was all over the place. And where you say it was subtly, I think it might have a lot to do with you reading yourself into it. I understand you were going through a tough time and connected with it. You may have read yourself into into. It was hard to see Frank determined to do anything seeing as how they did an X-Files thing with only a few episodes dealing with an on-going mythology and next week on some stand alone case. Frank working at the FBI, The MLM group as some secret enemy that Frank is trying to understand and expose, the high amoung to strange cases being investigated, really sounds like The X-Files. I really do like certain elements of season three more than the entire second season, but overall it was a little weak. It's not just a matter of changing the themes but quality of product.

[Guest]

.........IT'S VERY STRANGE BUT THAT'S EXACTLY HOW I FEEL ABOUT S2 compared to S1/3,they tried to do too many things and ended up with a real mess by the end of the season. for me they were a little too ambitous for thier own good. 99% of the time that would be a GOOD thing in the world of "T.V." but whenever i view that last 1/4 of S2 i just sit back and shake my head and wonder,usually aloud to denise: "what the f*** were they thinking???"      

........could S3 have started off better? maybe,yes. but had they even attempted to continue off where M&W's grenade left them then in my view the show would have turned into pure fantasy and for me that is definately NOT what MM is about. no way.

                        ~happy new year to ya  

                                          DAVE

[voidprime]

.........IT'S VERY STRANGE BUT THAT'S EXACTLY HOW I FEEL ABOUT S2 compared to S1/3,they tried to do too many things and ended up with a real mess by the end of the season. for me they were a little too ambitous for thier own good. 99% of the time that would be a GOOD thing in the world of "T.V." but whenever i view that last 1/4 of S2 i just sit back and shake my head and wonder,usually aloud to denise: "what the f*** were they thinking???"      

Well season 2 ended the way it ended because Morgan and Wong thought the show was going to get cancelled after the end of season 2, so they tried to wrap some things up.  I fthey knew there was going to be a season 3, I suspect season 2 would have ended differently.  That's my two cents.

Be Seeing you,

David Blackwell