why i HATE "the 4th horseman/the time is now"....

[Guest]

.......lets say that there is LOTS O' BACKSTORY to the end of S2.  aguements/speculation abounds from the M&W/CARTER/CREW and even the ACTORS on whether MM was ever really in danger of being cancelled. morgan and wong did not leave 1013 on the best of terms with carter/some actors and writing staff regarding thier involvement with MM. and i don't mean that as a shot at them either. i've read countless material;interview,etc and it seems almost everyone has a different view on this subject.  

  ....it is true that MM started to nosedive in the ratings the last half os season-2. which,inspite of how i feel about the last part of S2 still shocked me. at that time i had the luxury of having a subscription to the "daily variety" which had in depth ratings-(right down to +/-% of ratings increase/decrease from every show's weekly broadcast).

      ~we may never know the real,or TRUE,story regarding this.                                      ~DAVE

[Guest Mr. Ected Hostility]

I heard that the only reason there was a season three was becuase Carter was able to convince Fox that there would be a new direction. I also read lots of rumors about behind the scenes stuff, mostly revolving around Carter. Like Glen Morgan, James Wong, and Darin Morgan vowing never to work with Carter again. It seems to fit with the perception I get from reading about him. I remeber some Fox exec. referring to him as "an ego in search of a body".

By the way, I'd really like to see those episode ratings. Do you still have them? Can you post them?

[Guest]

........AAAAAARGH!   ........it is possible i still have them. being the great procrastonators we are concerning this unpacking from our recent move in late september we still have a ton of boxes lying peacfully in various closets. i'll try and track them down though.  when i first read them i read with disgust how many other cult-"hits" never achieved ratings anywhere near MM's worst ratings. shows like "buffy","star tek-voyager",and others i cannot remember now NEVER did as well as MM's "worst" ratings. yet all these inferior shows-(sorry buffy fans)-had the merchandise,books,shirts,blah-blah-blah,while MM was considered a failure because it did not live up to fox's expectations when it took over the x-files day/times-slot on fridays. PATHETIC!!!

       ...I'm more or less convinved that if MM began or was picked up by UPN/WB that it would have been considered a "hit" and surely have gone past season-3. .........oh,yeah,i rmember now a few other UPN/WB "hits" on at the time: "moesha"/dawson's-FLOODED-creek" and,I THINK, "WWF-SMACKDOWN!"        quality television,eh?    no..........i'm not bitter

                                   ~DAVE

..i'll see what i can scrounge up for ya

[Guest ignes fatuisi]

Hi,

I had only written once in tiwwa, and that was for Nexus' ftp server.

I live in Turkey, and we're almost coming to the end of season 3. Anyway, after reading all of the posts here, i just felt i had to write something

Millennium is-or was- without a doubt the most unique and original tv series ever. I believe that despite the contrary thoughts, the show was more to the high level viewers than the average. The low ratings and the short-life of MM can be linked to the high quality of the show and the requirement of full concentration to fully absorbe and understand it.

All 3 seasons have three different themes. The 1st season was the classic serial killer of the week, the 2nd was the religious cult and biblical apocalypse and the 3rd(as far as i had watched) the post apocalypse and survival of Frank Black.  I think that the tone of season 2 was beginnig to shape up with the episodes "Lamentation" and "PPTD"; the introduction of Lucy Butler, the young angel, and frank's visions were all signals for me. And i had always thought "how is the group going to use Frank's gift? how will it help them?" Frank's visions of angels and demons and confrontations with the Legion had to have some meaning to the group. Though these subjects would somehow link to the "psychological thriller" theme of season one, they were not fully explored and like a little left in the air. And although i just loved S1, these question marks intrigued me most.

With season 2, and the resolution of polaroid stalker story, the mythology of season 1 ended, but the contuinity of the show remained. This is in my opinion the first reason why MM is better than the X-Files(which i love as much as MM) XF had to rely on one continuing myth-arc, and to keep it interseting or at least watchable, 1013 had to play with it a lot,  resulting the disaster that is season 9.

On the other hand, from the start Millennium introduced quite a lot of plots to investigate. The stalker, the relationship of Frank and Catherine, Jordan herself, the group, Peter Watts...each of them were well written and well explored. And when one finished, it was time to move to the next, swiftly and without mocking up what was already built.

Anyway, season 2 dealt mostly with the group's origins, and revealing that they were an ancient "group" things changed. It was not the Millennium Group that we were introduced to in season 1, but for me, it made sense that they resembled a "cult".  The serial killers of the previous season all had to do something with the bible, all did what they had done accordingly to the phrases that they recited or Frank found out, and they all thought they were doing the right thing because they understood the true meaning of the holy book. The Group's interest in those cases surely had something to do with itself, and we found that out.

So i think the development of Millennium group was accurate, despite the ritual in "The Time Is Now" which was acceptable imho, but not understandable.

I think The Fourth Horseman and The Time Is Now were brilliant episodes. The quality and the power of those two can never be matched by any other tv programme again. I have to agree that the story of them were never implied, but thinking that one of the horsemen is disease(or something-sorry i couldn't find the correct word :( ) and whole season 2 was about "the apocalypse according to bible" it made a sense. And now with the infamous SARS outbreak (which began after S2 finale aired here-i was totally freaked out) the virus plot seems reasonable.(and with explanations in "Sound of snow" things really fit in place)

And i have to mention Lara Means. I think she was the other side, or maybe a subconscious of Frank Black. Frank could esily have followed the path which she did, and come face to face with what she had. To me she was Frank's fate's other path. And Peter Watts manipulated her so easily because she was ready to give in. She was sick and tired of her gift, of what she had been through but didn't have Frank's courage to fight with them. Totally great and important character

Now in season 3, what i see is Frank Black trying to understand what he did wrong, and trying to prevent Jordan or anyone who he cares from being a part of that wrong.. Of course, the beginning of the season was really sloppy, but even that had a meaning for me. It was that emptiness which Frank was in. He was in a shock, he knew he had to protect Jordan, bu didn't know from what, and trying to adopt to the new life(FBI etc..) which he left years ago. It's all total chaos. And now, having the advantage of knowing what the group really is and observing it from the outside, he understands what he's coping with.

Summary:  

1) All three seasons, despite their totally different themes, fit into each other and create one huge story.

2) Millennium Group is more than an consulting group, more than an occult. It's even more than the two combined. I don't know, I haven't seen the finale yet :)

3) The Fourth Horeman/The Time is Now, for me is the best possible ending to season 2. But not the whole series.

I  just realised no one had written here for more than 6 months. I hope someone will notice it :)

Thanks for reading!( it's 3.30 am, this is the best i can do!!)

[Libby]

Hi Ignes,

Well, it's 7.30 a.m. here and I have to get ready for work   .

So I don't have time for a long response, but I just wanted to say that I think what you have written is one of the best descriptions of the progression of the series that I've seen. There is one point you made that I think is very good, but I'll try to respond in more detail later - if I do that now, I will be late for work!

So, thanks and welcome!

Libby

[Guest ignes fatuisi]

hi Libby,

thanks for your "mini" comment- i'm looking forward to the long one now

it's great to have so many people who has so many thoughts and ideas on Millennium. It's hard to find people like you nowadays..

I.F.

[Guest MSandt]

Well when I saw these two episodes for the first time I was totally amazed. I had never seen anything like it before. It was fascinating and beautiful and depressing and scary. Let's get to your points Se7enand1:

1)The fact that there was no build up only made it more credible & scary. A virus like this doesn't come with a warning. It'd have been so childish if they had set the end of the world to begin exactly when the time hits 2000 years. It wouldn't make any sense.

2)The concept was realistic and far from ludicrous. I think Watts explained the way Marburg Variant PRP works extremely well to us & to Frank Black. And the doctor in the beginning said that the virus made an ambush - all symptons became at once. It's not impossible if you know how to manipulate viruses. And there is no medicine for Ebola & Marburg viruses and no medicine for prion diseases either.

3)A: No one said how long the incubation period really is. The doctor in the beginning said it could be just minutes. But it could be some hours as well. The real Ebola & Marburg viruses kill within days but even that varies. I bet Catherine got infected already back in the city (I'm sure she had social contacts before he called Frank) and it lasted some hours before the symptons started coming.

And the farmer in the beginning (best teaser ever by the way) -  I doubt he was infected when he entered the room with dead chickens. I think he got infected by those eggs which he ate (it makes sense as they filmed those eggs before they were eaten). I think I spotted a small reaction to some early symptons after he had finished his breakfast.

B: The dog carried a dead bird which for sure had died out of Marburg. Also the one who cooked those chickens (father?) was in contact with those chickens before he cooked them. So the entire family could have been infected by the dog, by their father or by that young man who was in close contact with the dead bird. And if I remember right - prions can survive in extreme heat. That the entire family died at once was made perhaps just to rise the 'shock value' but it could be that when the mother started to bleed, panic overran the rest of the family and panic creates blood pressure and this could fasten the symptons and cause bleeding.

C: In fact such scenario is now more possible than ever before. Look at SARS which was just a 'small' outbreak. It reached many countries but not many people but if it had been the Marburg Variant PRP it would have infected the entire population. Watts explained it pretty damn well by mentioning that the Marburg Variant takes only three spores to introduce an infection. This means it's extremely infectious and if you get infected you also get sick. Think of an airplane where one person with Marburg Variant can infect more than a hundred people. When the plane arrives all these people move to different directions - infecting people all around cities and their own families before they die. I think it was said quite well in 'The Stand' - "the center doesn't hold". When people start dying around the country it's already too late to take control of the situation when the case is about something as infectious as the Marburg Variant.

That was my theory. I just want to say that the end scene of 'The Time Is Now' is FANTASTIC!

[Guest]

***before i reply please know that this repsonse is not personal in any way but rather a passionate response. i say this because most fans are very protective-(including myself)-of thier favorite and most meaningful aspects of MM.-(for me it's the emotional tone and paranoia brilliance of S3)-so when these aspects are put down it can almost be like an attack of some sort.-(again,like me and my love of S3: ~)

....i still feel that "nearly" every part of these eps were the bane of the series.  ...it was cheap and childish of M&W to throw these eps with no build up at all and no respect of what had come before in S1 and the first half or so of S2. it was dishonest to not only the series itself but the characters,the history of what went before and the heart of what MM was/is-(in hindsight it was quite undertsandable that henriksen was so dissapointed in how S2 turned out as a whole) it was just sloppy storytelling that reminded me of dime-store science fiction and not the intricate genius MM was known for.

 

  ...the explanations M&W gave in the eps of the virus and how it works/spreads and so on,were about as beleivable as something out of cheap comic books. they not only got some very simplistic points about how virus's work wrong,but their heavy handed/melodramatic appraoch to the whole thing was,for me and others, simply silly. -(i realize that not every aspect of the show was intended to portray 100% reality,THANK GOD!, so i guess my coments are aimed at what i consider to be the true heart of MM and it's themes)

   

  ...as i've said before,for me it became painfully clear that M&W lost all sense of coherance and clarity after the riveting  but fundamentaly flawed and over the top owls/roosters. they started and then abanded so many damn story threads that everything just sort of stalled,in my view,in it's own tracks. and the sad result is a series of dreadfully bad episodes that almost killed the series and surely would have,at least to some of us,slightly tarnished everything that came before and what MM was truly about to begin with.

     

        ...it is known that M&W had major issues with FOX in general,as well as intense friction with the more or less sidelined/ignored S2 writing staff and henriksen himself. with all that in mind i could not help but think that these 2-eps were partially meant as a big F**K YOU! to the network,the show and 1013 in general. of course this is pure speculation on my part but it's something i think of just the same.

     

     ...your very passionate reply,along with all the others,to my own VERY passionate post waaay back in december still thrills me to no end that such a diverse fanbase has such extremes of thought about how or what made,and continues to make,MM the masterwork it so obviously is! it's actually one of the many other things i LOVE and treasure about this masterwork known as MM!

             

                                     ~PEACE,

                                             se7en

[Guest Polaroid Stalker]

Graham,

I respect your opinion, but jeez, man! I think that "The Fourth Horseman" and "The Time is Now" were the best damn things ever to grace the screens of our televisions!

First, the storyline was beautiful: Morgan and Wong should have gotten an Emmy... no, wait, an OSCAR!!! The writing was magnificent, playing beautifully against the backdrop of religious undertones. It was so damn good, I felt as though I were watching it firsthand.

Second, the direction: Dwight Little and Thomas J. Wright took Morgan and Wong's stories and transformed them into a vision of pure genius. Needless to say, both are the Spielbergs of the television world.

Thirdly, the acting. Lance Henriksen outdid himself, portraying a man who was trying to get his life and his family back together in the face of the dawning apocalypse. Terry O'Quinn portrayed a great character in Peter Watts, conflicted and torn between what he knows is right and his devout beliefs as a Rooster. Megan Gallagher, Brittany Tiplady, and Kristen Cloke also brought life to Catherine Black, Jordan Black, and Lara Means, respectfully.

Fourth, the music. Mark Snow did a beautiful job with the composing of the two-parter's sound. Especially "The Time is Now." They managed to incorporate the melancholy strains of my favorite song, "In the Year 2525" by Zager and Evans, not to mention the Patti Smith tune "Horses." Beautiful, just beautiful.

Needless to say, I'd rather watch "The Fourth Horseman" and "The Time is Now" than some of the other pieces of crap that's on the TV now.

-- Stephen the Stalker  

[The Old Man]

Hi Steven,

I think the posts were from Se7enand1, not me. His posts are coming up as Unregistered Guest. Sorry for the confusion.

Regards,

Graham.