Two-Parters

[Guest se7en]

-(me pulling whats left of my hair out. LOL!)

...i respect,and even enjoy reading your posts,whether i agree or not-(and if my "what in the holy hell" first reply was taken as in anger i assure you it was meant ONLY in exasperation)- but once again:

.......WHAT part of my post did i say that the group released the virus IN "S2". all of the easily verifiable FACTS that i presented are all,in thier entirety,in the "S2"-eps and spelled out VERY clearly. every example i brought up "is" there and accurate. it's not interpretation as M&W were never ones for sutblety. it also in the scripts,the episodes themselves.

...i don't want to argue either but in one instance it's said the "group is not evil",of course that debate is right up my alley so i reply to that and then it's "the MM group were not trying to destrroy the world" which had absolutely NOTHING to do with what i said. i then reply again,spelling out FACTS of what the group did in pointing out that the group was certainly no force for good by the time S2 was over,and yes includiing going after each other and evolving into a religious cult,doing murder and threatenning murder,followed by the example of the group not giving Frank's family the vaccine thereby causing katherine's death. then i get the response of: "THE GROUP IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE OUTBREAK,THEY DID NOT RELEASE IT". AGAIN,what did that have to do with any of the S2 examples i gave? nothing.

...as far as season-3 goes,since it was still a 1013 show during S3 i'm afraid that,whether you or i like it or not,the group WAS evil,the group DID release the virus,the group DID do experiments and reasearch and they WERE involved in warefare. the group WAS infected by legion. why? because THAT'S WHAT HAPPENNED. you may not like it,but that's what happenned. i may not like what happened in the ending eps of S2 but you don't see me going "well,the MM group never turned into a secret religious society/cult who wants to somehow save the world from ourselves and just happens to solve brutal crimes to pass the time of day". i don't do that because i'm stuck with what actually happened.

i brought points where,if anyone took the least bit of time,they could easily verify everyone "if" they wanted to and did not remember properly because i promise you that EVery example is banged over a viewrs head by M&W blunt force style. instead you seem to jump to conclusins that you think i am trying to make and am leading myself to,which is not the case.

...and as far as why would the group not tell frank about the identity of P.S. if they knew it would lead to frank killing a man and break up his family? if it was NOT to break up Frank's family and drive frank to kill a man-(which is was because it was stated as much that they wanted/needed frank to turn and focus his energies to and for the group for crying out loud)- then why,indeed,did they not tell him? out of the noble kindess of it's heart? that make no sense at all.

...and you are right,the ancient origins of the group were not laid out in S1 because......................there were no origins! they were a group of ex-law enforcement helping to solve tough cases while trying to understand and study the human mind and the endtimes. anything else,to use your criteria,was pure revisionist history invented by M&W,in S2, and no one else. -(and that's actually fine with me,hell i love "most" of it!)-but i do not get defending one's favorite season by saying that things did not happen-(group-wise in S2/3)- and/or the group were not a certain way when......they were. ...oy-vey.......now i'm getting confused! LOL.

frustrated-"but i'll get over it"-in COVENTRY,

~se7en

[The Old Man]

There's some fascinating and enjoyable viewpoints and references in these posts, but play nicely and try not to get personal everyone! Keep the debate coming although I'm wondering if this could make an excellent new topic/thread...

[SadEyes]

I do not think that the Group wants to end the world, it wants mankind to survive. Thats not evil, of course, but what about their approaches to it ? In "The Time is now" Mr Lott clearly explains to Frank, that the Millennium Group is not concerned with any individual life, the death of one individual is absolutely inconsequential. So, how is it decided who lives and who dies ? The Group makes this decision on her own, so you might ask, who gives them the right to do so ? This clearly states that the Group would kill anyone or letting die anyone, who might be dangerous for the fullfilling of their work. It is the old moral question, if it is right to sacrifice a single life to save the lifes of all.

[Guest A Stranger]

then i get the response of: "THE GROUP IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE OUTBREAK,THEY DID NOT RELEASE IT".    AGAIN,what did that have to do with any of the S2 examples i gave? nothing.

        ...as far as season-3 goes,since it was still a 1013 show during S3 i'm afraid that,whether you or i like it or not,the group WAS evil,the group DID release the virus,the group DID do experiments and reasearch and they WERE involved in warefare. the group WAS infected by legion. why? because THAT'S WHAT HAPPENNED. you may not like it,but that's what happenned. i may not like what happened in the ending eps of S2 but you don't see me going "well,the MM group never turned into a secret religious society/cult who wants to somehow save the world from ourselves and just happens to solve brutal crimes to pass the time of day". i don't do that because i'm stuck with what actually happened.     

   

      ...and as far as why would the group not tell frank  about the identity of P.S. if they knew it would lead to frank killing a man and break up his family?  if it was NOT to break up Frank's family and drive frank to kill a man-(which is was because it was stated as much that they wanted/needed frank to turn and focus his energies to and for the group for crying out loud)- then why,indeed,did they not tell him? out of the noble kindess of it's heart? that make no sense at all.

          ...and you are right,the ancient origins of the group were not laid out in S1 because......................there were no origins!  they were a group of ex-law enforcement helping to solve tough cases while trying to understand and study the human mind and the endtimes. anything else,to use your criteria,was pure revisionist history invented by M&W,in S2, and no one else. -(and that's actually fine with me,hell i love "most" of it!)-but i do not get defending one's favorite season by saying that things did not happen-(group-wise in S2/3)- and/or the group were not a certain way when......they were.      ...oy-vey.......now i'm getting confused! LOL.

          frustrated-"but i'll get over it"-in COVENTRY,

                                                            ~se7en

I was not using this as a season two example but showing the inconsistancies in season three that didn't sit well with me. True, the Group was ment to be a criminal consulting group but in season one there was more then enough mystry and ambiguity to make the viewer think there might be something going on with them. A criminal consulting firm that is sorouned by religous end of the world beliefs is very strange and it was hinted at in episodes like "Paper Dove" that their interests were more than secular.

I think that some season two fans really just disowned season three becuase they didn't like and that's why you get the "The Group was this... or the Group was not that..." type of stuff. Since the show as run by so many different forces I don't find it that strange that M&W fans would say that seaosn three was something all together different. Much the way that most XF fans will disown the last few years saying "Mulder would not have done that... and that is not the way Scully acts..." becuase it seems like in that case, the writers were not doing their job. I don't feel that wey about season three in general but I do see the reasoning.

I think in season two M&W were trying to create a conflict with the Group and Frank. I don't think they wanted him to seperate from Catherine necissarily, the Elder on the phone tells Peter that "he's only doing what we should have done" and wants Peter to go and stop it. The Group would do suspect things and then it would be balanced by knowledge that the did seem to have which would justify some of the bad things they did. I didn't see the Group as "a force of good" but as a force tyring to good but ultimatly corrupted by the end of season two. I just don't think that this aspect was portrayed very well at times. I did like the "43 threats are now elimated" in Skull and Bones becuase this was more a of a conflicted type of situation but most of the time they were just killing people.

[Guest se7en]

......what you say certainly makes sense. especially about how people become so emotionally connected to something that when it changes drasticly they tend to almost disavow it. or parts of it. that happened to me,as we all know,in the latter eps of S2 but also in instances of dialog contained in individual episodes even if it's an episode i like a lot.

2-examples of my screaming at the TV are:

1)-the openning monologue in "THE BEGINNING AND THE END". i did then,and still do,enjoy most of this episode very much but i did not buy,FOR ONE SECOND,that Frank Black would ever speak or utter ANY part of that speech/narration/monologue. i just did not buy it for a second. the monologue itself was good,just not coming out of his mouth because that is,decidedly not how Frank normally speaks.

2)-yet again another monologue,but this was an ending monologue: the one at the very end of "TEOTWAWKI" written,ironicaly,by C.C. and Frank Spotnitz. yet again i just did not buy that Frank would "speak" like this in anyway whatsoever. -(thankfully,in my view,the duo redeemed itself with exemplary ending monologue at the end of "Seven and one" which i still beleive was originaly intended to the last episode of S3,thought i can't prove that yet unfotunately! )

...apologies for my over-agressive/over-caffeinated reply last night! lol.

~se7en

[Guest chrisnu]

Yes, I think that seeing the show change in such a dramatic way contributed to my reaction that vociferously. I imagine my opinion will get milder over time. I was extremely apprehensive about the last two seasons of X-Files, but not that much anymore. MLM is still a very new show to me.

[Guest A Stranger]

......what you say certainly makes sense. especially about how people become so emotionally connected to something that when it changes drasticly they tend to almost disavow it.  or parts of it.  that happened to me,as we all know,in the latter eps of S2 but also in instances of dialog contained in individual episodes even if it's an episode i like a lot.

      2-examples of my screaming at the TV are:

1)-the openning monologue in "THE BEGINNING AND THE END". i did then,and still do,enjoy most of this episode very much but i did not buy,FOR ONE SECOND,that Frank Black would ever speak or utter ANY part of that speech/narration/monologue.  i just did not buy it for a second. the monologue itself was good,just not coming out of his mouth because that is,decidedly not how Frank normally speaks.

2)-yet again another monologue,but this was an ending monologue: the one at the very end of "TEOTWAWKI" written,ironicaly,by C.C. and Frank Spotnitz.  yet again i just did not buy that Frank would "speak" like this in anyway whatsoever.  -(thankfully,in my view,the duo redeemed itself with exemplary ending monologue at the end of "Seven and one" which i still beleive was originaly intended to the last episode of S3,thought i can't prove that yet unfotunately! )

              ...apologies for my over-agressive/over-caffeinated reply last night!    lol.

                                                            ~se7en

I do like some of those Frank voice overs but I'd be the first to admit they are self-indulgent and very much a Chris Carter trademark. Some I like more than others, I didn't like "The Beginning..." one too much. I did really like "TEOTWAWKI," though. I don't see it as Frank's actual dialouge, he would never speak it, it's more like a soliloquy or his thought process.

[Guest chrisnu]

I had completely forgotten about that bit in "19:19". It's not an episode that I watch frequently, and the mind tends to forget things. I was just rewatching "Goodbye Charlie", and there's some telling dialogue that I had forgotten about:

Frank: "That's one thing I don't believe in. One person controlling another person's life."

Lara: "And you work with Millennium?"

Frank: "Right now. Only because they present cases like these."

Hmm. I think I'm beginning to see some of what you were talking about, se7en. It seems that the control the Group exerts was still there in S2; the method or avenue of control is different. I'll rewatch the two-parters soon to see if I can pick up on anything else.

[Guest A Stranger]

I had completely forgotten about that bit in "19:19". It's not an episode that I watch frequently, and the mind tends to forget things. I was just rewatching "Goodbye Charlie", and there's some telling dialogue that I had forgotten about:

Frank: "That's one thing I don't believe in. One person controlling another person's life."

Lara: "And you work with Millennium?"

Frank: "Right now. Only because they present cases like these."

Hmm. I think I'm beginning to see some of what you were talking about, se7en. It seems that the control the Group exerts was still there in S2; the method or avenue of control is different. I'll rewatch the two-parters soon to see if I can pick up on anything else.

Not to mention Peter finally admitting it to Frank and himself in "The Time is Now." "...It was always about control," he tells Frank.

[Guest se7en]

and trust me no one was more bummed than me when the group turned into something other than good men and women with with a clear just focus. but looking at how the group DID evolve in S2 i think the direction it was taken in S3,in my opnion,made for absolutely stellar storytelling and tension,topped off by paranoia.

...but as much as i love the whole-(pardon my fench)-mind-f*** morality play of S3 i still feel ambivilent about the changes that led to it.

~se7en