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Guest se7en
But you aren't disagreeing really are you? We both agree they are very good episodes but I do feel that 'The Wild...' loses credibility by portraying all its main characters in such a negative light.

..well,no i suppose we are not disagreeing about liking the episodes so much as we are about the respective places we hold them. i really do beleive them both to be crucial episodes in the show's cannon. again,certainly not in a mytharc sense so much as overall quality and depth of storytelling.

~TAKE CARE,

se7en :ouro:

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Guest Pencil Machine Operator

Personally, I found the unrelenting nastiness of the guys in The Wild... an absolute joy to watch (well,you know what I mean). It made for a really challenging episode. There really are people like this, and not just in the American Deep-South. And the task for the viewer is to somehow NOT see them as some kind of demonic figment, to somehow ackowledge their humanity (however distorted it is). This is how I, as a lefty, see it anyway.

This may be why I thought Kingdom Come was 'below-par': Galen's obvious humanity was laid out on a plate for us, it was just too easy to relate to (granted, most of us won't start slaughtering priests!).

For me, a good Millenium episode needs a certain amount of discomfort.

It seems a lot of people come from a lot of very different angles when watching Millenium; and of course, none of those angles are right or wrong.

[except for the people who don't like Millenium: They are just, like, SO wrong. Dude.]

PMO :smokin:

[damn, probably shouldn't have 'fessed up to being a lefty]

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Guest A Stranger
Personally, I found the unrelenting nastiness of the guys in The Wild... an absolute joy to watch (well,you know what I mean). It made for a really challenging episode. There really are people like this, and not just in the American Deep-South. And the task for the viewer is to somehow NOT see them as some kind of demonic figment, to somehow ackowledge their humanity (however distorted it is). This is how I, as a lefty, see it anyway.

This may be why I thought Kingdom Come was 'below-par': Galen's obvious humanity was laid out on a plate for us, it was just too easy to relate to (granted, most of us won't start slaughtering priests!).

For me, a good Millenium episode needs a certain amount of discomfort.

It seems a lot of people come from a lot of very different angles when watching Millenium; and of course, none of those angles are right or wrong.

[except for the people who don't like Millenium: They are just, like, SO wrong. Dude.]

PMO :smokin:

[damn, probably shouldn't have 'fessed up to being a lefty]

What exactly is a "lefty?" I really hesitate making those broad statements. It's like the term "liberal" which to many conserviative Chritians means God-less baby-killers. The wordl "liberal" is derived from "liberty" and means just that. So when you say "lefty" I really don't know what that has to do with your world view. You are in support of welfare? The right and left of the American political system both share the same world view but just differ on small things. There is a drastic difference between a democrat and a socialist though.

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Guest ModernDayMoriarty

I do not object to dark characters at all, I object to over the top characters. I wasn't remotely discomforted by any of the male characters in 'The Wild...' because their allegedly callous acts just seemed ridiculous instead of sinister. One was an oddly dated steretype of 50's machismo and the other was ruined by the child sold for TV thing - I just couldn't find that frightening because it was so silly.

Also, I object strongly to the portrayal of women as sweet and innocent and men as callous, uncaring thugs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a misogynist but I am a vocal supporter of male rights. I encounter far too much casual sexism against men because apparently it's fine for women to 'air their views' at our expense. I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush and I don't mean to say that some men aren't as portrayed but I left most of 'The Wild...' feeling a bit cheesed off. The ending that shows Frank's compassion makes up for it somewhat but still I thought it was, as I have stated, vastly over-exagerated.

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Guest A Stranger
I do not object to dark characters at all, I object to over the top characters. I wasn't remotely discomforted by any of the male characters in 'The Wild...' because their allegedly callous acts just seemed ridiculous instead of sinister. One was an oddly dated steretype of 50's machismo and the other was ruined by the child sold for TV thing - I just couldn't find that frightening because it was so silly.

Also, I object strongly to the portrayal of women as sweet and innocent and men as callous, uncaring thugs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a misogynist but I am a vocal supporter of male rights. I encounter far too much casual sexism against men because apparently it's fine for women to 'air their views' at our expense. I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush and I don't mean to say that some men aren't as portrayed but I left most of 'The Wild...' feeling a bit cheesed off. The ending that shows Frank's compassion makes up for it somewhat but still I thought it was, as I have stated, vastly over-exagerated.

Disagree complety. Off course, I don't like the things the male characters did but in the context of the show and it's message, it works. I like 50's machoism though, it worked for the character and I like what it says about America in general, those types of characters.

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Guest se7en

.....i have also come across many people,and i've lived in both very urban life-(1979-1990)-and very rural/small town life-(1970-1979/1990-present)-who are just plain rotten to the core-(i'm talking people who would clap at a drive by and people that would laugh at car wrecks.) while i have never known anyone like this to comit violent acts i know it happens...........constantly. all i have to do is pick up the paper or turn on the news. and blunt fact remains that,"OPRAH-NATION" or not,men are responsilbe for more than 90% of all violent crime. i've no doubt whatsoever that there millions of people WORSE than the people mentioned in these 2-epsidoes. no doubt. none. and the ratio of men Vs. Women in prison for viloent crime? it isn ot even worth mentioning it's so one sided. and while i am certainly not implying that all women are great and kind-(gimme a f***ing break!)-the fact remains that 'the fact remains": men are aggresive,have violent tendicies,no matter if we want to admit it or not,and it is so very damn easy for a child to be turned into an adult menace. it happens everyday. that's why i find nothing over the top,for the most part,in these 2-episodes. based on people i have unfortunately encountered throughout my life it's all to beleivable.

..and,for me anyway,just the mere presence of Frank and Peter-(who at that time was not in a religious/cult-mumbo-jumbo group,and whose motives and/or presence were always a positive one)-were enough for me to balance it out just fine.

...now who can tell me what "other" episode the actress who plays maddie was in briefly? winner gets french toast and vodka! :tasty:

Montreal tomorrow and wednesday,SEE YOU ALL LATER,

se7en :ouro:

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:thankx-big: Dave!

Oh, and about this....

men are aggresive,have violent tendicies,no matter if we want to admit it or not,and it is so very damn easy for a child to be turned into an adult menace. it happens everyday.

One need only turn on the nightly news to see evidence of that. But, I must add that men don't have to nessisarlily, by right of their DNA, be aggressive. It is a combonation of the hormones that men already possess, combied with the conditioning of society, that can turn some men into monsters. "Evil isn't born", I heard a wise man once say.....

:thinking_big::frank_black:

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Guest chrisnu
...now who can tell me what "other" episode the actress who plays maddie was in briefly?      winner gets french toast and vodka!  :tasty:

Well, I know that she did appear in the X-Files episode "Die Hand Die Verletzt". I think that's what you're referring to.

PS. Somewhat-OT: the "cult mumb-jumbo" Group was OK with me; it was the "EEVIL covert action" Group I had a problem with.

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Guest A Stranger
.....i have also come across many people,and i've lived in both very urban life-(1979-1990)-and very rural/small town life-(1970-1979/1990-present)-who are just plain rotten to the core-(i'm talking people who would clap at a drive by and people that would laugh at car wrecks.)  while i have never known anyone like this to comit violent acts i know it happens...........constantly.  all i have to do is pick up the paper or turn on the news.    and blunt fact remains that,"OPRAH-NATION" or not,men are responsilbe for more than 90% of all violent crime. i've no doubt whatsoever that there millions of people WORSE than the people mentioned in these 2-epsidoes. no doubt. none. and the ratio of men Vs. Women in prison for viloent crime? it isn ot even worth mentioning it's so one sided. and while i am certainly not implying that all women are great and kind-(gimme a f***ing break!)-the fact remains that 'the fact remains": men are aggresive,have violent tendicies,no matter if we want to admit it or not,and it is so very damn easy for a child to be turned into an adult menace.  it happens everyday. that's why i find nothing over the top,for the most part,in these 2-episodes. based on people i have unfortunately encountered throughout my life it's all to beleivable.

      ..and,for me anyway,just the mere presence of Frank and Peter-(who at that time was not in a religious/cult-mumbo-jumbo group,and whose motives and/or presence were always a positive one)-were enough for me to balance it out just fine.

              ...now who can tell me what "other" episode the actress who plays maddie was in briefly?      winner gets french toast and vodka!  :tasty:

            Montreal tomorrow and wednesday,SEE YOU ALL LATER,

                                                            se7en :ouro:

She was in The X-Files episode "Die Hand, Die Verletzt" :smokin:

Again, in defense of "The Wild..." I agree with Se7en, I think what they were showing by Gilroy selling the child and Bobby's relentless pursuit for something he didn't even really care about (a human being) that there is a loss of value for human life. These characters are motivated by nothing other than their own desires.

And as for the violence against woman, it is still a very real problem. I can't remember the specifics but I heard a polling of the U.S were about %30 of the people said that they thought it was alright for the husband to hit the woman in an argument! I really don't think we're at the point yet as a society to be worried that men are being portrayed too violent towards woman.

And didn't Chris Carter once say that MM was about bad things happening to good people? Maddie is that good person so I don't see her as being weak. In fact she's more of a survivor considering the amount of suffering that was only implied that took place before the episode.

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Guest Pencil Machine Operator

A Stranger,

When I said I was a lefty, I meant that my attitude towards criminal behaviour is NOT the 'lock-em-up-and-throw-away-the-key' approach (favoured by conservatives). And also, I'm against the death penalty (also favoured by conservatives). I mentioned the fact that I'm a lefty in self-deprecating terms because from reading the 'off-topic' discussions on this board I realised that there are a lot of self-confessed right-wing members, and I realise that I'm probably in a minority (not just on this board, pretty much every election in Europe has moved to the right; except for Spain of course!).

And please understand, that is all I meant by it, and I don't know what you thought I meant.

As regards what kind of lefty I am (if you really want to know), I'm left of the Democrats, left of New Labour (Blair's party), but I don't read Lenin pamphlets. I associate the political term Liberalism with so-called Neo-conservatism, and so would'nt describe myself as a liberal. But then again, I don't know what this has to do with anything. Perhaps the terminology we use in Europe is a little different to the American way of speaking. I think we've just got our wires crossed or something?

I vote Green (that's here in Ireland, not Nader, but if I was American I would consider voting for him).

All cleared up?

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