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Was Ricardo Clement an early Mabius/Legion?

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Guest Jim McLean

I sit in the middle on this.

On one hand, I have no doubt its just casting mechanics - looking for a threatening face and re-using actors that have been effective and (probably) easy to work with. Especially as I doubt Mabius was originally bio'd as Legion and it was something that naturally evolved in a singular story.

That said, I do think its fun to play the "inter-fiction" approach to stringing faces together. In regards to Millennium, being Legion, you can simply put it down to the power of unworldly forces allowing one face to go unnoticed in a new role. I quite like linking the pair simply for the face with enough ominous connections between the two to enjoy a new layer to my personal enjoyment.

In the larger picture (X-Files), maybe there is a bigger conspiracy that we are privy to... all in the name of fun.

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Dear Laredo,

I'm absolutely with you on this primarily as Mabius was created as a unique entity who was shoehorned into the Legion mythology when it was apparent that the show's demise was inevitable and it was considered a reward to give fans an overt nod to the Legion mythos, one which was never intended but universally perceived. Whilst there is no doubt that the mythos hints at a more expansive treatment of the notion of evil than disparate souls, randomly creating chaos without reason, it wasn't initially intended that a single entity be earmarked or that a Jungian archetype was created in order to produce a Satan-lite figure to be the nemesis of Frank. The Legion mythos was seized upon by devotees of the show who perceived commonalities in otherwise divorced concepts and it was only in 'Seven and One' that the creative team honoured the perceived mytharc by inferring that Frank had undergone a period of tribulation at the hands of a singular entity. Since the mytharc became established, despite the lack of intention on the part of the creative team it has created much room for maneuver in deciding which characters fulfill the ambiguous criteria for a mytharc that was never intended to be. If caveats were not implemented into the characters and intent and inference were absent how do we conclude which characters supported a retrospective view of events. I did try, in earnest, to generate discussion with regards to the Legion mytharc recently but found I was fighting against the upsurge in XF popularity. So c'monn chaps, get involved. Whilst it is lovely to have the odd off-topic moment, the aperitif before the meal if you will, let's have the main course and ensure this MM topic runs and runs.

This is who we are!

Eth

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Guest Jim McLean

Is there much official commentary on the Legion arc? I would be curious to learn more - especially on the notions you mention about Seven and One being a creative wrap for an undetermined arc.

I only really responded to this after starting to watch Millennium from scratch (my partner has moved out so I have a little more time on my hands to indulge!) and just passed Gehenna. Never noticed the actor connection first time around - which is an indicator how they could comfortably reuse the same actor two years later - the mainstream are most likely not to notice!

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I am somewhat vexed Laredo as I cannot for the life of me recall where I obtained the information with regards to the Legion-arc. On the one hand I believe I may have read it: a cursory glance of M-TIWWA bears no fruit so I wonder if it was either the Abyss or that the information was contained in the Millennial Comet (now defunct electronic newsletter that was distributed during the series.) On the latter point I have printouts of all the editions of the Comet so I will read them and report back on this for you. To make matters more discombobulate I would wager a wee bet on having heard this as a faded memory exists of Chris Carter discussing this very issue. All in all very confusing but I am certain that I have happened upon this version of events more than once and given in an official capacity.

Leave it with me my friend and I will see what I can uncover.

Best wishes,

Eth

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Guest Jim McLean

I can ask no more. :)

Incidentally, having just watched The Judge today, it has been retrospectively fascinating. Disconnected storylines fused by incident, intentional arc or simply the format of the show, Millennium sometimes seems far more Legion orientated than it probably is. So many antagonists are very much an unworldy trial for Frank. Certainly some come under a clear mythological banner, but even the likes of Kaboom, you have an interllect and adversity placed on top of a human question of ego. On a very basic level, nearly all the tales in someway pit Frank against a human failing or drive that plays for "evil" and as such, each could be seen as a test of Evil, one that very much gets its first hints in Gehenna and then underlined in The Judge.

I'm waffling about what many people have seen for themselves, but I'm just spewing what I've found on my second full series re-watch (my first watch back in the day was sporadic and disconnected, this is my second DVD collection run through) and finding the accidental/incidental/intended footsteps of Gehenna and The Judge really put an ideological question on Millennium's format, regardless of who is "Legion" and who is not. The series so often is truly the tests (or as you might put it, tribulations) of Frank Black. Frank vs "evil". In essense, even the non Legion characters are Frank vs Legion.

Love it!

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Guest No Touching

I really like the idea that Clement and Mabius were one and the same. While I'm certain it was never the show's intent, it does work nicely with the "unintended mytharc" that was created throughout the three year run. Clement was the first manifestation of "Legion" that the Group encounters. Two years later, once the Rooster faction has completely taken over the group following the Old Man's death, they've become so blind to their own evil that they allow the same demon into their ranks without suspecting a thing.

In my mind, it was one of those happy little accidents that makes Millennium so rewarding.

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  • 2 years later...

I love the term "Unintended mytharc." It's so true!

However, I tend to lean on the acting pool for this one. There was a similar thread regarding Lucy Butler and the creepy part she had in Schizogeny, that had the same questions regarding linking the same character. Mr Wilde, at least in this show, plays a certain type of role well. I would be curious as to what other roles he has done as to whether they were different or similar to his Millennium stuff. And does he really speak Japanese ?!?!:rofl:

:rock2:

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The late, great Bob Wilde was a truly menacing performer when he was asked to be. Mabius still has the power to give you the chills. Mr. Wilde tended to be cast in two ways. He was cast in military/law enforcement roles or as Mabius-like characters such as The Silhouetted Figure or The Ghoulish Man. He didn't tend to get hugely scripted parts but he managed to create very memorable performances despite this and as Mabius proved.

A great actor and one who is dearly missed.

Eth

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  • 7 years later...

I've yet to get to season 3... Just finished "Room with No View" episode and it got me back to thinking precisely to the Gehenna episode. There is a common plot thread of "authority figures" taking advantage of vulnerable persons to groom them into doing there bidding. Lucy Butler was shown using extreme tactics by abducting adolescents, but equally demonic characters are shown recruiting in their own ways. The Judge in season 1 took ex-cons under his wings, and yes, the Ricardo Clement guy in "Gehenna" had a method down pat too: inculcating a gang mentality into economically vulnerable young men with drugs and money. In terms of verisimilitude, there must always be the question of how the Legion or any other Malevolent leaders get their pawns to do their bidding, and Ricardo does appear to be doing similar things as Legion related characters.  Whether he was an incarnation of Legion is anyone's guess, but I can't help but think the show creators had this M.O. on their minds. 

Can't wait to see this Mabius figure in season 3. Don't want to get involved in the outdated flame war of reusing actors, but can't let pass the crazy reuse I noticed... The "devilish" father of the man who abducted Frank's sister-in-law in Sacrament also reappears as a cop in season 2 "Monster." He has such a unique face that he was immediately recognizable, and I couldn't help but imagine some kind of zany convoluted twist.  Of course there were no indications in the episode outside of the actor to think that, so it wasn't too heavy, but I couldn't help chuckle at the irony of the former episode's extreme evil and the latter's perfunctory lawfulness. 

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I believe the show used the name "Legion" from a Gospel in the Bible where Jesus meets a possessed man; when asked what his name is, the man replies "My name is Legion, for we are many."   The man  begged Jesus repeatedly not to send him out of the country, so Jesus sent the demons into pigs, a herd of about two thousand rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned in the water.  Interesting is the biblical the meaning of the name Gadarenes is: Men of Gadara; i.e. a place surrounded or walled.

The writers were very good at joining the spirit realm with the flesh, but usually always with evil intent, which obviously made Frank Black and his ability even more intriguing.  Frank called it a gift and a curse, I believe it is an ability that he had, but never mastered it, and why he went through so many troubled times.

You are very observant Jabbapop to notice Ken Roberts co-starring as Green's father in Sacrament, and Police Chief Jenkins in Monster.  And, this won't ruin it for you I hope, he also plays the warden in season 3's Via Dolorosa.  You have eagle eyes.

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"Time is too slow for those who wait; too swift for those who fear;

too long for  those who grieve; too short for those who rejoice.

But for those who love, time is eternity."

(Jane Fellowes)

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