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Further evidence that we're headed for the end

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Guest SouthernCelt

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Gunslinger speaks from a LIFETIME background of law enforcement perspicacity . The "content" you speak of comes from first hand experience over many years of dealing with predators, murderers, etc.....I wonder if perhaps, just perhaps each of us who knead our pillows just right, then snuggle under our warm comfy blankets only to drift off into the morphic haze of sleep could instead, strap on a badge and get our asses out there and face the fear, and see the evil that these men and women do EVERY SINGLE NIGHT...having to patrol areas that are'nt even safe during the day, much less at 2AM...i work in areas that are effectively closed to utility work after 12 noon because it is too dangerous. I work the graveyard shift in the most crime ridden area in all of Southern California, the San Fernando Valley, which is home to some of the most violent gangs in existence, primarily MS13 (Mara Salvatrucha). There is not a single night that i dont see police helicopters circling in the general area, and i wont even begin to tell you of the things i have seen and heard, as they defy all reason and logic..and i am NOT in law enforcement. There have been many, many nights where we have been called back to our base office due to gunfire. We are often approached by prostitutes on a regular basis as their base of operation used to be, and still is at times, at the corner just east of our building. They wait for us to turn into the driveway and approach us as we wait for the electric gate to open. Our office is surrounded by two rows of concertina wire (razor wire), and it has been a very effective deterent. I have seen police, with their weapons drawn, sprinting by our central office to the one hour motels just up the block...yes, its a real shithole area...It is literally a warzone...We have had to have police escorts at times, staying by our side for the duration of our work...we have been harrassed and followed in company vehicles from location to location, we have also had many vehicles broken into, and i cant tell you how much time is spent erasing the stupid graffitti that seems to appear out of nowhere. All i have to say is unless you have experienced it firsthand like Slinger or myself, its very difficult to knock someone for their assessment...When you deal daily with the darker aspects of human nature, a nature that we all COULD become, you are within your rights of "telling it like it is"....this aint "COPS" on Fox....perhaps Slinger is wrong, maybe the right approach would be to sit down with these criminals, offer them milk and cookies, and find excuses for their behavior (society, The Man, etc...)..NAH...Slinger, i am in your corner on this one. I dont blame you at all for the way you feel or have expressed yourself. Walk a mile in his or my shoes and you will whistle a different tune...

4th Horseman..

It's good we all can discuss this openly. There are strong opinions each way in regards to the death penalty. Sometimes you have to walk a mile in someone else's shoes to truly understand. The same can be said for any of us in this discussion, as well as for everyone in the world. Murderers and grandmas alike.

Let's just keep it civil. (this is directed at no one in particular, just a reminder as I see that this can be a touchy subject.) Remember, that's what separates 'us' from 'them'. Right?

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It's good we all can discuss this openly. There are strong opinions each way in regards to the death penalty. Sometimes you have to walk a mile in someone else's shoes to truly understand. The same can be said for any of us in this discussion, as well as for everyone in the world. Murderers and grandmas alike.

Let's just keep it civil. (this is directed at no one in particular, just a reminder as I see that this can be a touchy subject.) Remember, that's what separates 'us' from 'them'. Right?

It is almost too bizarre that such a thread should grace our board at this juncture as the whole topic for and against capital punishment has been reignited by a recent case here in the UK. I feel really credulous on this topic as I have only ever participated in a society that abolished state executions many years ago so my social conscience has been spared the need for the profoundly difficult considerations such a topic demands of society. I also fear, as Erin notes, that any protestations I may proffer on this subject could offend the sensibilities of others and since I declare my lack of insight this wouldn't be appropriate.

Forgive my lack of anything interesting to say save to note that I am reading this topic with interest and once again relying on the great minds here to inform and shape my schema.

Many thanks to all who written, it is giving my friends and I much to debate.

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The first thing I offer on the subject is the difference between MURDER and KILLING. Murder is always wrong, but killing is sometimes justified. Of course most will agree that if I catch someone in the act of trying to murder my son or daughter I should certainly kill them to protect my child.

The next jump is whether or not the state should kill people to protect its citizens. For instance, if a group of people is murdering a country's people, should the state begin killing those that are attacking its people? Most of us say yes, a government should protect its people from other countries that war against it. Some say fighting violence with violence will never solve things. Yet pacificistism only works if everyone shares your values. If no one faught agains Islolmo-facisim, then they WOULD make the whole word Muslim?

Then there is the situation where I was not able to stop the murder of my child. A person is caught and proven guilty in court. Should the state kill this person for murdering my child? Some say no, because it is never right to take life. By killing peple we become as bad as murderers ourselves. Others argue that mistakes have been made and the wrong person can be convicted of a crime they did not convict, so we must not kill anyone because we might kill the wrong person. In other words, can we trust the state to not make mistake?

I say we live in a fallen world, and the government must do the best it can to protect us. I say kill those trying to murder us before they get the chance. I also believe that it is "the sureness of the punishment, not the serverity of it" that detours some from committing certain crimes. For instance, if a rapist was 99% sure that he would be castrated if caught I believe there would be fewer crimes. However, not all are able to control their urges (pedophiles) and should be locked forever or killed. If we are going to have capital punishment I think it ought to be swift and sure. These thugs that tortured and murdered this young couple should have been dead two or three weeks after they were caught.

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It's good we all can discuss this openly. There are strong opinions each way in regards to the death penalty. Sometimes you have to walk a mile in someone else's shoes to truly understand. The same can be said for any of us in this discussion, as well as for everyone in the world. Murderers and grandmas alike.

Let's just keep it civil. (this is directed at no one in particular, just a reminder as I see that this can be a touchy subject.) Remember, that's what separates 'us' from 'them'. Right?

Erin my dear. Yes, it is nice that we can discuss this openly, however, i have a sense it will need to be seriously monitored less it get completely out of hand. I was giving you a view of what i see every single day and was trying to convey just how one could quickly become jaded, prejudiced, xenophobic...its a double-edged sword. Civility is the word for today...

4th Horseman

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The first thing I offer on the subject is the difference between MURDER and KILLING. Murder is always wrong, but killing is sometimes justified. Of course most will agree that if I catch someone in the act of trying to murder my son or daughter I should certainly kill them to protect my child.

The next jump is whether or not the state should kill people to protect its citizens. For instance, if a group of people is murdering a country's people, should the state begin killing those that are attacking its people? Most of us say yes, a government should protect its people from other countries that war against it. Some say fighting violence with violence will never solve things. Yet pacificistism only works if everyone shares your values. If no one faught agains Islolmo-facisim, then they WOULD make the whole word Muslim?

Then there is the situation where I was not able to stop the murder of my child. A person is caught and proven guilty in court. Should the state kill this person for murdering my child? Some say no, because it is never right to take life. By killing peple we become as bad as murderers ourselves. Others argue that mistakes have been made and the wrong person can be convicted of a crime they did not convict, so we must not kill anyone because we might kill the wrong person. In other words, can we trust the state to not make mistake?

I say we live in a fallen world, and the government must do the best it can to protect us. I say kill those trying to murder us before they get the chance. I also believe that it is "the sureness of the punishment, not the serverity of it" that detours some from committing certain crimes. For instance, if a rapist was 99% sure that he would be castrated if caught I believe there would be fewer crimes. However, not all are able to control their urges (pedophiles) and should be locked forever or killed. If we are going to have capital punishment I think it ought to be swift and sure. These thugs that tortured and murdered this young couple should have been dead two or three weeks after they were caught.

Hippyroo...you present some salient points that i AM SURE WILL inspire those who feel differently to post their thoughts as well. As i posted to Erin, so shall i put it to you. To know that ONE SINGLE PERSON had been put to death on tainted evidence, false testimony, etc who later was posthumously exhonerated would be, at least for myself, too great a burden. Your statement that we live in an imperfect world is reason enough to harbor doubts about the finality of the act itself. Trusting our government to "get it right" requires trial and error. This is an issue that requires 100% accuracy, each and every time, all the time. As our imperfection suggests, it is contrary to perfection, and thus it cannot be used as judge, jury, and executioner...what i was trying to say in my origional post was just how easy it COULD be for one to be so jaded by the seedier nature of humans when that is the environment they are constantly exposed to...thank God for my family and friends...

4th Horseman...

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Guest Laurent.

Just to be clear... When I said I didn't agree with capital punishment I never intended to downplay the horror that some humans are capable of. My opinion is not based on the thought that there are no crimes worthy of the death penalty; I do not agree with this idea. I just honestly think that a life in prison should be a much better dissuader, it should be harsh enough to make criminals hope for anything else than a life in there. In fact, I personally think that prisons seem a little bit too comfortable (and too expensive) at times, but this is only coming for an exterior look on the matter. Furthermore, I'll make anything to get through this life without having anyone's death on my mind.

I'll quote the same author as I have done in the past (even though I forgot his name): "How can we sentence a man to death without knowing what it is we are sentencing him too? A painless death might be the greatest gift of all."

quick edit: I admit that I have never faced real crimes... there seem to be light years between my home and the world you are talking about. I'm not admitting that I am wrong... just that our point of views are different. Our perception, judgment and opinions are probably not applicable everywhere and we might even change our minds if we both switched place.

Edited by Laurent.
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Just to be clear... When I said I didn't agree with capital punishment I never intended to downplay the horror that some humans are capable of. My opinion is not based on the thought that there are no crimes worthy of the death penalty; I do not agree with this idea. I just honestly think that a life in prison should be a much better dissuader, it should be harsh enough to make criminals hope for anything else than a life in there. In fact, I personally think that prisons seem a little bit too comfortable (and too expensive) at times, but this is only coming for an exterior look on the matter. Furthermore, I'll make anything to get through this life without having anyone's death on my mind.

I'll quote the same author as I have done in the past (even though I forgot his name): "How can we sentence a man to death without knowing what it is we are sentencing him too? A painless death might be the greatest gift of all."

quick edit: I admit that I have never faced real crimes... there seem to be light years between my home and the world you are talking about. I'm not admitting that I am wrong... just that our point of views are different. Our perception, judgment and opinions are probably not applicable everywhere and we might even change our minds if we both switched place.

Laran my friend..you dont have to explain your position. As i stated before, as much as i WANT to support the concept, does it simplify itself to a rudimentary issue of revenge or looks, or personality? As i replied to hippyroo, who basically with one word exposes my reluctance in supporting the issue.

IMPERFECTION..

With that single word, in addition to the continual gross miscarriages of justice we have witnessed (OJ Simpson comes immediately to mind, and there are many, many others), makes the death penalty suspect at best. Also, with the breakthrough of DNA testing, and with the realization that it has freed previously tried and convicted individuals after decades of needless incarceration, i would rather see my tax dollars spent on putting the criminal behind bars rather than witness the horror of putting to death someone who 5 years down the road would be found innocent of their purported crime...i used to be a staunch advocate of the DP, however, one moment in time changed my mind and that was when i served as foreman for a jury 10 years ago. I can honestly say that the time i spent in that deliberation room COMPLETELY changed my mind about capital punishment. I still think back in wonder at some of the blatent stupidity and ignorance displayed by some of my fellow jurors. Some came into the room yelling "Guilty, and you ain't gonna change my mind so don't even try", while others said they didnt care if we convicted or aquitted, they would vote with the majority because they were going out of town for the weekend, and were afraid we would be called upon to deliberate on Saturday and/or Sunday. Some absolutely refused to listen to the evidence, one of them basing her entire opinion on the looks of the defendant. "He looks guilty, so he must be" "Did you see that little smirk on his face?, well i would love to wipe it off" I AM NOT BS'NG YOU GUYS....I cant tell you how stressful and intense it was. I began to think after the trial was over, (this was a simple criminal case that lasted only 3 days), what the hell would happen if this had been a murder case where the more complex issues of evidence, testimony, timelines would come into play. I shuddered then as i do now that, at least from my experience, i could NEVER support the taking of a human life based on other human beings feelings, emotions...a jury of your peers it is said. Unfortunately, a great many of those peers, by the time they even get up to deliberate, have already decided your guilt or innocence, and the greater evil is that a few of those convictions are based not on the evidence, but on how the defendant looked/acted/breathed/blinked, the way his hair was combed, the way he was dressed, his body language. Did he roll his eyes a lot at the testimony? Did he look bored? Did he smirk? Is he/she good looking or ugly??

I swear to you that these come into play, and i witnessed this amongst my "peers" during the deliberations of the trial i was on...

So that is my little story of how my stand of 30 or so years was changed in a matter of 72 hours...to say that the government gets it right most of the time is just not good enough. Also, to what degree of certainly can we declare guilt? Look at how DNA testing has freed several previously convicted individuals. At the time of their trail, i am sure that many people thought with 100% certainty that they had the "right guy". Yet 20-25 years later, its proven they did not. At least that individual had the option of walking out of prison and living out the rest of his life in a somewhat normal manner. Would it not be a crime of similar magnitude to put a person to death, then find out sometime later that you had the wrong guy? Laran, i agree with you that there ARE crimes worthy of the DP, but in order to advocate or exercise such a finality of taking a human life for a life, dont we as a society have to justify it beyond 99%?? Leaving that 1% open for error is just too much in my opinion...

p.s. - Laran, i was describing the environment around my work location. I live about 18 miles away but it might as well be across the country, as the two areas could not be more different....there is a mountain pass that seperates the two locations, and the wonderfully delicious yet eerie occurrence is that the highway goes right by Spahn Ranch which was where the Manson Family lived at the time of the Tate-Labianca murders...you can clearly see it from the freeway coming and going, so i drive by a little bit of history as well every day....cant ask for better than that...LOL..

just my thoughts and opinons...dont anyone get their knickers in a bunch!!!

4th Horseman...

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The first thing I offer on the subject is the difference between MURDER and KILLING. Murder is always wrong, but killing is sometimes justified. Of course most will agree that if I catch someone in the act of trying to murder my son or daughter I should certainly kill them to protect my child.

The next jump is whether or not the state should kill people to protect its citizens. For instance, if a group of people is murdering a country's people, should the state begin killing those that are attacking its people? Most of us say yes, a government should protect its people from other countries that war against it. Some say fighting violence with violence will never solve things. Yet pacificistism only works if everyone shares your values. If no one faught agains Islolmo-facisim, then they WOULD make the whole word Muslim?

Then there is the situation where I was not able to stop the murder of my child. A person is caught and proven guilty in court. Should the state kill this person for murdering my child? Some say no, because it is never right to take life. By killing peple we become as bad as murderers ourselves. Others argue that mistakes have been made and the wrong person can be convicted of a crime they did not convict, so we must not kill anyone because we might kill the wrong person. In other words, can we trust the state to not make mistake?

I say we live in a fallen world, and the government must do the best it can to protect us. I say kill those trying to murder us before they get the chance. I also believe that it is "the sureness of the punishment, not the serverity of it" that detours some from committing certain crimes. For instance, if a rapist was 99% sure that he would be castrated if caught I believe there would be fewer crimes. However, not all are able to control their urges (pedophiles) and should be locked forever or killed. If we are going to have capital punishment I think it ought to be swift and sure. These thugs that tortured and murdered this young couple should have been dead two or three weeks after they were caught.

Erin my dear. Yes, it is nice that we can discuss this openly, however, i have a sense it will need to be seriously monitored less it get completely out of hand. I was giving you a view of what i see every single day and was trying to convey just how one could quickly become jaded, prejudiced, xenophobic...its a double-edged sword. Civility is the word for today...

4th Horseman

Well stated, Hippyroo....Horseman...

And you as well, Laran.

This is one of those things that there can never be a black or white answer to.

The case I'd been asked for help with involves a man who was convicted in 1996 for the murder of his wife. No motive. No murder weapon. No evidence at all to link him to the crime, other than the fact he was THERE. (he states it was a type of car-jacking), yet he's been rotting in jail ever since, and I can't figure out what to do about it.

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Guest Laurent.

Wow. Very eloquent post. Thanks for sharing the story 4th.

p.s. also glad to hear your home area is more tranquil than the neighborhood around your work. I'm not sure I could stand living in a place where I'd hesitate to go out at certain hours.

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Wow. Very eloquent post. Thanks for sharing the story 4th.

p.s. also glad to hear your home area is more tranquil than the neighborhood around your work. I'm not sure I could stand living in a place where I'd hesitate to go out at certain hours.

Thanks Laran...you post with an elegance as well. The skies are clear tonight of helicopter traffic, so far. Alas, there is a scent of hope in the air. As Slinger would agree, you adapt to the situation. You learn to look for signs, signatures of a particular situation and then react accordingly. It is an unfortunate byproduct of the environment both Slinger and myself work in, but it has made us even more keener in our personal lives as well, for it is then that you have your family's best interest at heart....

4th Horseman..

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