Further evidence that we're headed for the end

[hippyroo]

Hippyroo...you present some salient points that i AM SURE WILL inspire those who feel differently to post their thoughts as well. As i posted to Erin, so shall i put it to you. To know that ONE SINGLE PERSON had been put to death on tainted evidence, false testimony, etc who later was posthumously exhonerated would be, at least for myself, too great a burden. Your statement that we live in an imperfect world is reason enough to harbor doubts about the finality of the act itself. Trusting our government to "get it right" requires trial and error. This is an issue that requires 100% accuracy, each and every time, all the time. As our imperfection suggests, it is contrary to perfection, and thus it cannot be used as judge, jury, and executioner...what i was trying to say in my origional post was just how easy it COULD be for one to be so jaded by the seedier nature of humans when that is the environment they are constantly exposed to...thank God for my family and friends...

4th Horseman...

I understand your perspective. What horrible injustices have been brought upon the innocent through "mistakes". If there were a way to prove that killing those found guilty of murder stopped a certain number of citizens from being murdered in the future, and if the ratio of innocents saved to innocents wrongly killed by the state was something like 100,00 to 1 - you would still want to not kill the one wrongly found guilty of murder would you? I know that is a vallid view in our culture.

Is it true that murders have dropped from about 20,000 per year to around 17,000 per year since the big push to build prisons in the 1990s? I wonder how many of this 17,00 are actually sentenced to death each year? 20 or 30? and most of those in Texas?

[Guest peas_and_corn]

https://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/executedoffenders.htm

25 were executed in texas in 2007

https://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cp.htm

42 in the United States overall

And- executions in the US since 1930-

[Gunslinger]

It's good we all can discuss this openly. There are strong opinions each way in regards to the death penalty. Sometimes you have to walk a mile in someone else's shoes to truly understand. The same can be said for any of us in this discussion, as well as for everyone in the world. Murderers and grandmas alike.

Let's just keep it civil. (this is directed at no one in particular, just a reminder as I see that this can be a touchy subject.) Remember, that's what separates 'us' from 'them'. Right?

No problem RW, it is never my intention to tread upon anyone's point of view, opinions are the expression of our values, morals, ideals, and experiences all rolled up in one and there is no way any two are going to e exactly alike, that is the cool part about being human. I actualy can see both sides of the argument pretty clearly. With all the people being exonerated for crimes these days on DNA evidence, it's no wonder that law enforcement seems to get a bad wrap for the most part. Cases and trials back in the 70's, 80's, and even through the mid 90's were often decided on circumstantial evidence and statistics. Are there innocent people sitting in prison right now? Of course, are the majority of prisoners? No way. I am a firm believer that 99% of people in prison are right where they belong. I've never talked to a guilty person at a jail or holding facility. It's the Shawshank Redemption argument, not a guilty man inside this prison, "lawyer screwed me" or some other excuse. Our system is, or at least used to be, put in place to tear away all extraneous material from a case and look at the core of what happened. Now, I'm sure most of you will agree, it's more of a dog and pony show about someone's horrible upbringing and how they never had a chance in life so please don't put them in prison, after all, they are a good person just caught up in a bad situation. If I could write down all the times I've heard a slick defense lawyer use this EXACT line in court, on a deposition or plea, I would have used up a lot of pencils my friends. I see what happens on TV and in the media all the time, every time a cop screws up, it's on CNN, and in my opinion, it should be. Police officers are held to a higher standard and should ALWAYS go on shift with that very thing in mind, do that, and most of your public will respect and help you out more than you can imagine. Law enforcement is a belief system as much as it is a job, you either buy into it, or take a hike, if you are there for a paycheck, your not there for the right reasons......There I go again, once again, I digress, gotta watch me on that 4th, my soapbox tends to get bigger as I get older..lol, back to the topic, the death penalty is of course a very sensitive topic, I probably shouldn't have spouted off like I did, but, having to face a mother or a father who has just learned that his or her 16 year old daughter/son is dead is also a sensitive topic. Their child has just been splattered across 4 lanes of traffic because of the mortal sin of taking a trip to Taco Bell at 10pm on a Friday night to get food.Try to come up with something......some kind of rationalization or comfort to these grief stricken people, whose only thought is that their most treasured thing in the world, who was just getting started in life, is now gone...forever, not coming back, never going to fulfull all the hopes and dreams that their parents had for them. What do you say to them at the hospital? What do you tell them about the drunk person in the police car who has just ended their son's life for NOTHING? Do you tell them his only concern was to ask anyone walking by the police car for a cigarette? Do you tell them that his excuse for killing a human being was "that I just can't break the habit, I didn't mean to hurt anyone?" Should this be a validation for what he has done. Is it a viable excuse? Would it surprise anyone to know this was this person's 5th DWI? Would it surprise anyone more that he did just a little over a year in prison for vehicular manslaughter? Was the dead kid back alive within a year? Nope, last I checked, his gravestone still stands high at the local cemetery five years later. Was justice served? Do the parents have any less sleepless nights, knowing that this person has been "rehabilitated" and is now free to do this again? How about a mother who has just learned that her 21 year daughter has been shot through the throat by a drug dealer? Her crime? She was visiting her boyfriend in an adjacent apartment to one where a drug dealer shot a rival in a drug deal gone bad. The hollow point traveled through the walls and pierced her throat as she and her boyfriend lay on a sofa watching a TV show. The defendant? "I wasn't shooting at her, I was shooting at the guy in the apartment who I was fighting with. I kinda feel bad she got killed, but I can't let people rip me off on drug deals....that is just not good business. If he rips me off, then then next person thinks it's ok to rip me off then it's open season on me." When the dad and mom look at you with tear stained faces and say for the love of God, WHY? What do you tell them, he was economically challenged and was not a very good shot? No, you tell them, sir, ma'am, I will make it my mission in life to see that this person pays for the crime of taking your daughter's life with his own. And then maybe, just maybe, when you finally get home 18 hours later, you can finally go to sleep without screaming........This is who we are.

[Gunslinger]

That was passionate. I have to say it is a brilliant post even though I do not agree with the content.

Nahhh, no passion intended, just clinical detachment at seeing fellow human beings slaughtered by predators. I'm sure prison will make them into productive citizens.....Would you live next to them after their release from prison?

[Gunslinger]

I can't tell you how much this story troubles me. I don't feel like where I live this kind of heinous murder has become common and depersonalized. I live in Québec and there are not a lot of murder committed in our city (according to Statistics Canada, we only had 5 murders in 2005) and they rarely approach the kind of violence that we're talking about here. I remember that there was a triple murder-suicide that occurred last year in a suburb of Québec and the press were talking about it constantly for a week and I think that everyone felt the loss very deeply. We can't underplay the importance of the media when such events take place. The population has to know about it if you want the family of the victims to receive some sort of condolence, which can really help them make their peace with the crime.

Onthe other hand, I know that the U.S.A. have a ten times bigger population than Canada and that the number of crimes is necessarily higher, but I think that maybe it's normal that the press doesn't treat every case as we did here in Québec. If they did, our lives would be nothing but a relentless grief.

P.S.: If they're found guilty, what kind of sentence can we expect? Prison for life (as I hope if they are, indeed, guilty)?

edit: Just realized that they could be facing the death penalty, so I would really like to know what kind of sentence they are most likely to receive. Over here, our justice system is being criticized for what we call "des sentences-bonbons" or "candy-sentences" especially, in my opinion, regarding to sexual crime.

Depending on laws in that state, the perps can be charged with capital murder...punishable by death, or 1st degree murder...which carries a life in prison w/out parole sentence. A lot it also depends on what the families want done. The prosecutor will usually meet with the family to find out if life in prison would be acceptable or if they want he death penalty pursued. If the prosecutor and the family agree on seeking a death penalty, then the defendants have to either appoint or be appointed a lawyer who is certified in death penalty cases. This can obviously drag out for a year or more while mental evalutations are conducted, criminal histories, lifestyles, and a million other details are sorted out. The most probable outcome at least for the majority of the defendant's, most likely 2-3 out of five of them, is to make a deal to testify against the 2 "ringleaders". Those three will in turn most likely get a gurantee of not getting a death sentence, usually a life in prison with possibility of parole. Then the in-fighting will start among the defendants about who the ringleaders actually were and who "actually" decided to kill the couple. I wouldn't be surprised if this case took 1-3 years to be abjudicated fully.

[Gunslinger]

Gunslinger speaks from a LIFETIME background of law enforcement perspicacity . The "content" you speak of comes from first hand experience over many years of dealing with predators, murderers, etc.....I wonder if perhaps, just perhaps each of us who knead our pillows just right, then snuggle under our warm comfy blankets only to drift off into the morphic haze of sleep could instead, strap on a badge and get our asses out there and face the fear, and see the evil that these men and women do EVERY SINGLE NIGHT...having to patrol areas that are'nt even safe during the day, much less at 2AM...i work in areas that are effectively closed to utility work after 12 noon because it is too dangerous. I work the graveyard shift in the most crime ridden area in all of Southern California, the San Fernando Valley, which is home to some of the most violent gangs in existence, primarily MS13 (Mara Salvatrucha). There is not a single night that i dont see police helicopters circling in the general area, and i wont even begin to tell you of the things i have seen and heard, as they defy all reason and logic..and i am NOT in law enforcement. There have been many, many nights where we have been called back to our base office due to gunfire. We are often approached by prostitutes on a regular basis as their base of operation used to be, and still is at times, at the corner just east of our building. They wait for us to turn into the driveway and approach us as we wait for the electric gate to open. Our office is surrounded by two rows of concertina wire (razor wire), and it has been a very effective deterent. I have seen police, with their weapons drawn, sprinting by our central office to the one hour motels just up the block...yes, its a real shithole area...It is literally a warzone...We have had to have police escorts at times, staying by our side for the duration of our work...we have been harrassed and followed in company vehicles from location to location, we have also had many vehicles broken into, and i cant tell you how much time is spent erasing the stupid graffitti that seems to appear out of nowhere. All i have to say is unless you have experienced it firsthand like Slinger or myself, its very difficult to knock someone for their assessment...When you deal daily with the darker aspects of human nature, a nature that we all COULD become, you are within your rights of "telling it like it is"....this aint "COPS" on Fox....perhaps Slinger is wrong, maybe the right approach would be to sit down with these criminals, offer them milk and cookies, and find excuses for their behavior (society, The Man, etc...)..NAH...Slinger, i am in your corner on this one. I dont blame you at all for the way you feel or have expressed yourself. Walk a mile in his or my shoes and you will whistle a different tune...

4th Horseman..

Sir, you are much braver than I ever was, we have occasional homicides, armed robberies, other violent crimes, bad, I assure you, I belive if I had to drive to work in the area you do every night, I would do so with an armed escort or buy an Abrams Tank....lol, I think I would pass away from a nervous breakdown working where you do 4th. Watch your six sir and get home safe.

[Guest Laurent.]

Thanks for the clarifications Gunslinger.

[hippyroo]

Thanks for your service Gun. One of my brothers and my son-in-law are cops. I know how much good you guys do that never gets out to the public. Both have had to deal with life and death situations n real time; not from a philosophical perspective.

Thanks for the stats Peas and Corn. I was off just a bit.. ha. So, 17,00 murders and less than 50 executions. Maybe one of the executed was wrongly killed? MAYBE, but all of the murdered were wrongly killed. Doesn't seem right to me. So if cost $25,000 per death row inmate that's $41,250,000 spent to coddle murderers each year. Doesn't seem right to me.

Finally, what about all those death row inmates that we have no doubt about at all? The ones caught red-handed, or on video, or with like 15 witnesses.. why aren't they at least executed?

The thing is, our culture changed very much over the last 40 years. Right and wrong have become a matter of perspective. The only thing that seems to be "immoral" is to tell anyone that they are immoral. If you don't want to just let everyone do their own thing then YOU are the problem. This attitude permeates our courts as well. "He really isn't a bad person, just misunderstood. We ought to try to understand the influences that forced him into his situation. We ought to help him, not punishh him. Besides we really don't have the time to take him to trial, or the room in jail. Let's let him get back to society where he belongs." How many times do we find out that the people that do these horrible times have a rap sheet that goes back years? Doesn't seem right to me.

[Guest SAMAYEL]

I CANT HELP IT. I FEEL COMPELLED TO TYPE ALL CAPS. MAYBE ITS O.C.D.

[Guest Jim McLean]

The thing is, our culture changed very much over the last 40 years. Right and wrong have become a matter of perspective. The only thing that seems to be "immoral" is to tell anyone that they are immoral. If you don't want to just let everyone do their own thing then YOU are the problem. This attitude permeates our courts as well. "He really isn't a bad person, just misunderstood. We ought to try to understand the influences that forced him into his situation. We ought to help him, not punishh him. Besides we really don't have the time to take him to trial, or the room in jail. Let's let him get back to society where he belongs." How many times do we find out that the people that do these horrible times have a rap sheet that goes back years? Doesn't seem right to me.

But that's the gift - and curse - of enlightenment; that life isn't black and white; that people are not born "evil", but are sculpted through environmental factors. That doesn't make the outcome any less terrible or horrific for some crimes, but understanding the complex interaction of action and reaction creates the bad personality as it builds the good is part of empathic intelligence.

Problem is, while social interaction is a complicated beast, we want an absolute society. We don't want to be "slightly safe" or "slightly unsafe", we crave defined parameters to find a comfort zone. We want to know our houses are UTTERLY safe. We want to know that those who do terrible things are utterly BAD. We want to know that by being good people God will look down on us and DEFINITELY send us to heaven.

Human nature demands absolutes, as does instinct. You are hunter or hunted, dead or alive. But when we gather the ability to look at issues intellectually, we do see that - to our horror - life isn't so simple, as much as we want it to be. We see that life is built from greys, not black and white. We see that a bad person doesn't enact as a harbinger of simple evil, but a complex weave of issues or desires, be they psychological, physical or a fusion of the two.

This of course makes social justice very hard, for as we become more tolerant and understanding of each other, we look beyond our absolute desires at a bigger picture. As soon as you recognize elements beyond the nature pack order; strongest at the top, weakest at the bottom, and look towards protecting the weak, equal rights for all, you will start seeing how social inadequacies are the breeding stock of criminal behaviour, not any absolute as evil.

Empathy is the gift of enlightenment, it is - as you say - also the curse. As soon as you understand the complex nature of people, its harder to treat them as simple problems.

Some fascinating books I must recommend - Homicide: A Year On The Killing Streets and - by the same author - The Corner, both which tackle the social logistics of the problem of justice from both sides of the coin, and how nothing is quite as simple as we desire and no party is specifically to blame. Police, jury, judges, lawyer and even the criminals suffer from the inadequacies born from the frustration of trying to keep social law simple while realising more and more than its far more complex than any of these groups truly understand. One of the biggest ironies is that the people who often keep the criminals out of jail are not the police or the law courts, but the civillians themselves in the juries, often swayed by Hollywood notions of "Whodunnit" rather than any honest and genuine interest for justice.

As for the death penalty, I'm against such notions personally, but if it is an option which increasingly becomes a rational "only solution", then it should be done humanely - no matter how nasty the person is. It should be a means to remove a problem, not exact some revenge or social pleasure from it. No pain is healed from such act, and no benefit comes from exacting pain on someone who has hurt others. Remove the problem if that is the social dictat, but don't indulge in it is my opinion. Few of the execution methods in the world are genuinely painless, and if a man is going to die - especially when there is an outside chance he may be innocent, execution should be free from torment and free of audience.

I can see the logic in removing problem citizens from a social group (even if I don't personally support it), but no matter how many people have been hurt by a problem citizen I see no rational benefit to exacting pain on that man. We should have learned to be better than that by now, and if we haven't its a notion we should carry forward. Afterall, be it by the hand of a judge or the law of the street, killing someone with intent is murder - I'd like to think the legal system and the law abiding citizens can be the better man, and not use any execution as an excuse for revenge but merely an unfortunate cure for a complicated problem.