Further evidence that we're headed for the end

[Gunslinger]

gunslinger, using simple easy to understand words is genius! You express yourself very well; it is quite clear what you are saying. Of course it helps that I agree with nearly everything you say. After dealing with enough of "those" people you really can't understand them; you get to the point where you just wish they'd stop or be stopped. It's like, "Where are the adults to stop all this crap?" Yes, these criminals are human. They have human qualities. They might even be charming, but the difference between them and most of us is that they went ahead and did the bad thing. It doesn't make them less human; it does mean that they need to suffer the consequence of their actions. Should mercy be shown where warrented? yes. But an abundance of mercy or laziness or overzealous concern for their rights has overtaken the courts. Justice is more about money and polotics than it is about right vs. wrong.

EXACTLY!!!!!!thanks for saying what I couldn't in my previous rambling incoherent narrative. Justice is definitely more about herd them in, herd them out, Once again, great summary hippyroo, as always, good to hear from you.

[Gunslinger]

I'm sorry but I agree with little of Gunslinger's sentiments (that are more concise and eloquent than he probably realises!), nor the equally honest commentary of Hippyroo's. Regardless of problems within the system, as soon as the social order starts objectifying with "them" and "us", we take a step back.

Laredo, first off, if we were in a formal debate setting, I would have just had my ass handed to me by your response to my post, so great post and kudos first and foremost. I do envy you for being able to have a good overall attitude toward society and and our justice system. As a matter of fact, everyone who has posted on this topic seems to me to have stated their points with the utmost integrity and I really have enjoyed reading them all. It is very difficult to understand your concept of "us" and "them". I am not referring to a have/have not society or anything of that sort. I do agree that there is definitely a "us" group, "us" being the group of people who decide to obey societies laws and not get up every waking morning with the intention of defrauding/raping/robbing/killing/molesting our fellow mankind for our own enjoyment. If you mean "us" in that concept then yes, I firmly believe in the "us" group. Does good have to be willing to go as far as evil to balance the scales.....................................a conversation not for this board by any means but a helluva concept in general and one that I have pondered for a long time. Our justice system is flawed, there can be no doubt about it, the entire model of our justice system is that the burden is on the state, and that is just what it is, a burden. With one left out stroke of a pen, murderers can go free, rapists let out early from prison to do it again and again and again......whose fault is that, society? Does a lower class or deprived upbringing give one a legitimate excuse to harm another human being who has done you no wrong other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time? God forbid if you received a call in the middle of the night saying a loved one had been killed by a drunk driver, would you honestly care if the drunk driver was a alcoholic because both his parents were? Would this dilute your loss? Do YOU recklessly drive drunk and attempt to kill people? If your answer is no, then you are one of "us" Laredo. You have chosen to not bring horror and loss onto a parent that you don't even know for no good reason. We all make choices everyday, miniscule sometimes mundane choices that in our normal routine lives do not impact upon our fellow man. If you make a conscious choice to harm another person for the specific reason to take what they have because you don't have it, you have just become "them". This is a choice we all have, you can use any excuse you want to, socio-economic status, past history, whatever, the simple fact of the matter is that bringing pain, suffering and/or death upon our fellow man is not to be taken lightly in any aspect of existence. The philosophical model of society that you describe does make sense on a grand scale but what each of us individually goes through every day is on a micro-scale, protect our own, try not to harm anyone in the course of my actions. If we could look out for everyone and make sure everyone had the same chances or good childhood growing up that a majority of us have then that could be wonderful, but we can't. We can't see what's coming around the corner. Most of the time it's a good friend, a quiet lunch at our favorite restaurant, a warm spring day with our loved ones. But what if it's a "them" wielding a butcher knife and wanting money for their next drug fix? What if it's a 4am wake up phone call telling you that a "them" just crossed the center line and killed your spouse on their way to work because "them" thought they were just sober enough to make it to the all night liquor store for another case? Can you identify with these people? Can you take solace in the fact that "it takes a community to raise a child" so it's not really the "them's" fault? I am not in any way saying I am better than anyone sitting in prison right now or anyone at all, I'm not, never will be, but I will make a choice to not take the watch, wait, who cares?, I do belong to "us" and although some see the line from us to them as gray at best, it seems more well defined the older I get. As always, best to all on the board. Gunslinger.

[Guest Jim McLean]

I'm sorry but I agree with little of Gunslinger's sentiments (that are more concise and eloquent than he probably realises!), nor the equally honest commentary of Hippyroo's. Regardless of problems within the system, as soon as the social order starts objectifying with "them" and "us", we take a step back.

Laredo, first off, if we were in a formal debate setting, I would have just had my ass handed to me by your response to my post, so great post and kudos first and foremost. I do envy you for being able to have a good overall attitude toward society and and our justice system. As a matter of fact, everyone who has posted on this topic seems to me to have stated their points with the utmost integrity and I really have enjoyed reading them all. It is very difficult to understand your concept of "us" and "them". I am not referring to a have/have not society or anything of that sort. I do agree that there is definitely a "us" group, "us" being the group of people who decide to obey societies laws and not get up every waking morning with the intention of defrauding/raping/robbing/killing/molesting our fellow mankind for our own enjoyment. If you mean "us" in that concept then yes, I firmly believe in the "us" group. Does good have to be willing to go as far as evil to balance the scales.....................................a conversation not for this board by any means but a helluva concept in general and one that I have pondered for a long time. Our justice system is flawed, there can be no doubt about it, the entire model of our justice system is that the burden is on the state, and that is just what it is, a burden. With one left out stroke of a pen, murderers can go free, rapists let out early from prison to do it again and again and again......whose fault is that, society? Does a lower class or deprived upbringing give one a legitimate excuse to harm another human being who has done you no wrong other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time? God forbid if you received a call in the middle of the night saying a loved one had been killed by a drunk driver, would you honestly care if the drunk driver was a alcoholic because both his parents were? Would this dilute your loss? Do YOU recklessly drive drunk and attempt to kill people? If your answer is no, then you are one of "us" Laredo. You have chosen to not bring horror and loss onto a parent that you don't even know for no good reason. We all make choices everyday, miniscule sometimes mundane choices that in our normal routine lives do not impact upon our fellow man. If you make a conscious choice to harm another person for the specific reason to take what they have because you don't have it, you have just become "them". This is a choice we all have, you can use any excuse you want to, socio-economic status, past history, whatever, the simple fact of the matter is that bringing pain, suffering and/or death upon our fellow man is not to be taken lightly in any aspect of existence. The philosophical model of society that you describe does make sense on a grand scale but what each of us individually goes through every day is on a micro-scale, protect our own, try not to harm anyone in the course of my actions. If we could look out for everyone and make sure everyone had the same chances or good childhood growing up that a majority of us have then that could be wonderful, but we can't. We can't see what's coming around the corner. Most of the time it's a good friend, a quiet lunch at our favorite restaurant, a warm spring day with our loved ones. But what if it's a "them" wielding a butcher knife and wanting money for their next drug fix? What if it's a 4am wake up phone call telling you that a "them" just crossed the center line and killed your spouse on their way to work because "them" thought they were just sober enough to make it to the all night liquor store for another case? Can you identify with these people? Can you take solace in the fact that "it takes a community to raise a child" so it's not really the "them's" fault? I am not in any way saying I am better than anyone sitting in prison right now or anyone at all, I'm not, never will be, but I will make a choice to not take the watch, wait, who cares?, I do belong to "us" and although some see the line from us to them as gray at best, it seems more well defined the older I get. As always, best to all on the board. Gunslinger.

Thank you for the kind words.

As for your overall point, I think we should try and identify with all these people. Again, David Simon's The Corner (book not show) is worth reading as it gives an empathic viewpoint from drug fiends. Again, his Homicide: A Year On The Killing Street does the very same for the hard working "us" in the police force. No one is totally without empathy, but that doesn't mean no one is totally without blame.

As I was saying to a good friend the other day, I'm a very strong believer in "table turning", and this is why I find "them" and "us" very inconsistent - and I would say few who look for this ideology as a truth would genuinely carry it out in all states as the no tolerance absolute demands.

I'm not talking about the boring, selfish "what if it accidently happened to you?" scenario - the "what if you were tried as a criminal when you were a victim". That's a dull point. But what if it was your brother? What if your brother became a drug fiend? Or became an abuser? Someone you CAN identify with, who isn't a standard "them"? Honestly - would you be looking to punish them with a painful death? I suspect very few could live up to the cold intolerance of a system who painfully kills its criminals when its their own flesh and blood.

I'm not suggesting that one would be demanding their brother/mother/lover be treated as an innocent or that one would be utterly unable to be rational, but I do suspect that when it hits so close to home, you would want to see your brother kept from harming others. Even if he killed, I suspect your answer wouldn't be to watch him painfully fry. If you did feel he had to pay the price, again, I suspect it would be in a way which was humane rather than an excuse to serve as a shallow serving of revenge for a victim.

I maybe wrong - maybe people here are cold enough to separate out love and friendship from the need to punish indiscriminately, but past accounts show few who live up to this cold ideology. Many will divorce their blood and not want to see them again if they truly are abusive in an extreme way, few - from what I've read - look to exact the same cold absolute ideology on family as they would on an unknown drug fiend.

This is where I think table turning is important. It shows you answers which make sense for all, and not just the unknown face of "evil". Sometimes that face is a little more familiar, and I think in such situations, many opt for a far more tolerant mode of dealing with criminals than the harsh one they would serve to the unknown face.

This is how I came to my decision. I've known friends who have turned out to be something far worse than they are. I know that they should be locked up and kept away from harming people. I don't wish them agony for what they've done, but I do believe for the good of the many, they need to be kept away from those they could hurt.

This has always been a problem with low tolerance systems, and you'll find it frequently coming to bear with those who exact it; it eventually becomes one rule from one, and one rule for another. Low tolerance has its own kettle of fish which is equally - if more flawed - than what we have now.

Peace, fascinating stuff. I'll try and wind down my eulogy from here on, as I think if we disagree with this, and people are happy punishing their relatives in exactly the same way they would a dope fiend or abuser, than we have an impasse! :)