THE MOST EVIL MEN AND WOMEN

[pibbsneaker]

Last October, I bought a book entitled "The Most Evil Men and Women in History" by Miranda Twiss.

Here's the list:

1: Caligula

2:Nero

3:Attila the Hun

4: King John

5: Torquemada

6: Prince Vlad Dracula (Tepes)

7:Fransisco Pizarro

8: "Bloody" Mary I

9:Ivan IV "The Terrible"

10:Elizabeth, Countess Bathory "Countess Dracula"

11:Rasputin

12:Josef Stalin

13:Adolf Hitler

14:Ilse Koch "***** of Buchenwald"

15:Pol Pot

16:Idi Amin

That's alot of Evil people. I'm not sure if King John or Rasputin should make the list. What's everyone else think of this list? I would definitely have to rank Hitler as number one, with Stalin a close second.

[Guest]

.....they should revise it and put bin-laden in there somewhere. just my opinion of course. damn i hope we get that b******* in the end!!    

                                             ~DAVE

[The Old Man]

Roger that, mate!

I think that Serb guy (Slobodon Millosovich?) that is on trial for warcrimes and genocide should be on the list.

Gra.

[Guest Faustus]

Well I don't know if I totally agree with Caligula and Nero being so high up the list. Agrippina, Nero's mother might have been good. It's always really hard with ancient history to quantify their actions, depending on what sources you use. But despite that, I think Dr. Joeseph Mengaler would have been an appropriate addition.

Also (and I know this is going to get me in trouble) the list seems a tad eurocentric, focusing alot on "Eastern" individuals. Historical individuals are always difficult to use. Perhaps they could have broken it down into differnt epochs.

But it's certainly an interesting conversation starter.  

[pibbsneaker]

I agree that the list is sort of eurocentric, but then again, I don't know much outside of European history and the Ancient world. I should have stated this in the first post, but the list is only in a chronological order.

[pibbsneaker]

Oh yeah, didn't Nero have Agrippina beaten to death by the Praetorian guard? What a bad guy. And that was after she survived the first plot to kill her. He had an admiral take her out into the Bay of Naples in a collapsable boat. Can you believe that she actually swam back to shore?

[Guest owl_eleven]

I dunno about you, I've always had difficulty finding historical figures like Hitler and Mr. Bin Laden as candidates for true "evil".  These individuals' acts were perpetrated by their followers for whatever reasons they saw fit at the time - we view them as "evil" because we're on the receiving end.  Bin Laden's strike against NYC was not his first terrorist act against the USA, though 9-11 has been likened to a second Pearl Harbor in the war against terrorism.  I hate to say it, but we're a ignorant of world events if we think 9-11 was the kick-off.  This type of terrorist act was dramatized a long time ago by Tom Clancy in his book "Debt of Honor" (in which terrorists hijack and crash an airliner into the Capitol.)  It's not like we didn't think something like this would happen.  It is an old story.  We just didn't take Bin Laden and his like seriously when they made their intentions known.

Ever wonder why we didn't start a war on terrorism long ago?  Like when the first car or building was bombed, or the first plane hijacked, or the first suicide bomber blew himself/herself up?  Were the casualities of these acts too insignificant?  Was the loss of life not severe?  Has the world suffered countless losses due to the inaction of the nations who could have done something but didn't? "Was it worth one life?"

Such acts like the atomic bombing of Japan in the '40s resulted in catastrophic losses in a most horrific fashion.  Japan struck a military target that poised a threat to their economic future.  Our leaders vaporized millions of innocents in the blink of an eye!  Twice!  Yet these acts appear as a justifiable means to an end.  Why?  Because Japan hit us at Pearl first?  Must peace be achieved with the sharp edge of a blade?

There is a saying.  "The history of a war is recorded by the victors."  No history is complete without heros and villains.  We all have a moral compass.  I for one choose to judge for myself the evils around me.  Let no history book be my guide.  Owl_Eleven  

[Guest LauraKrycek]

I don't really agree with you, on the Hitler point, at least.  I admit sheepishly that I haven't really kept up well with this whole terrorism war thing -- my college town is pretty small, so we're kind of sequestered up there, and I don't have cable so I can't watch CNN or anything.  Most I get are during the 2 hours I work each day, because my boss has NPR on constantly.  I've been researching the Holocaust because I'm doing the dramaturgical work for my theatre's production of "The Diary of Anne Frank", and whether or not Hitler personally killed everyone with his own hands, he did some pretty horrific things.  Things I don't even like to think about, but unfortunately, it's my job right now to always think about it.  It's really rough -- to think about all of these innocent people who were murdered because of something about them that they couldn't help in the least.

And as for the war on terrorism, I think that yes, the attack on WTC demanded action.  But this war springs forth not really as just an answer to the attack, but because Bush has gotten nothing but made fun of for pretty much forever now, and while he still is, this makes something he'll be known and remembered for.  I think, from everything that I've heard everyone talk about (and while I'm unaffiliated, I hang with a bunch of Democrats and Green Party people), that there have been a lot of mistakes made.  While I don't think we've had an outright just horribly terribly awful President for awhile (of course, I don't really know much about it b\c I'm still a young 'un -- but I turn 20 in 12 days!), I think that a lot of improvements need to be made.  But also, ever since I went to Japan last summer and spoke to an Asian-born woman who had lived in America since she was 10 but had been in (I think it was Thailand) for three months on business.  She spoke about how terrible conditions were there for women and children, about how terrible the government was, and how much she loved America.  This was greatly refreshing for me, being around people constantly who do nothing but talk about how bad this place is.  I think that we're founded on great principles, but we've strayed from them, and the government still does great things.  Most people try their best to make sure that everyone is fed and clothed, and that people have opportunities to support themselves.  We build up a kind of security for ourselves and each other, where other countries have so many people unable to even grasp at threads to begin construction on that security we hold so close.  Obviously, all of us have enough money to buy computers -- imagine, how much food that could buy in a poor country for a starving family.

Okay, I've kind of strayed off the topic... WAY off.  But I guess my point, in a way to attempt to draw it back, is that evil can be conquered if people simply set their minds to it and focus on their goal.  I think as a whole, America has become almost too secure in what they have, and other countries only see our media (which we know how much bad stuff is in that -- a parent can't even trust a kid with a remote control anymore without having to worry about what they'll see) and hear of our acts against themselves and other countries, acts which us people have nothing to do with.  I remember, once when FX was having a MM marathon, they had interviews w\ Lance and he said something to the effect that the show made people ask themselves, "Where in our conciousness does evil really exist?"  I think that's what we need to figure out -- where does evil spring from, its manifestations, and then how to conquer these, because it's only then that evil can be defeated.

Oh dear... I talk far too much.

[Guest Olivier.Laurent]

By the way, just as a sidenote, the computers we all buy, they are made in these countries where there is no food, no security, no money. It is the Western countries that keep the Third World in misery, because if we want something cheap for us, we will want the people that make them to do it for less than nothing. That's Free Trade, that's today's economy. It's sad, but it is true.

[Guest]

......to put it simply,and i am a major WWII history buff: without hitler the holocaust never would have happened. it was HIS directive,HIS goal,HIS obsession. that's evil in my book.

     

LAURA: very well put. as much as i criticize,and despise,our current government "leaders" our government in and of itself is very capable of doing great things,and does so on a regular basis. i love this country but i do not love what our leaders are plunging this country into. 

OLIVIER: yep,you got that one on the nose. in way we are spoiled for most of us having it so easy as we seem to crave,and demand,more and more and more,as is the disgusting case with many large corporations and the policies they encourage as regards cheap overseas labor and unethical business practices that often screw the u.s. work force.

    I agree that our current government and president,is.....well........sad but i was,and still am,behind getting the taliban and bin-laden back for 9/11. everything else is driven purely by politics and approval ratings and a president desperate to make papa-bush proud,world consequences be damned-(my opinion,that's all). if we go ahead with the invasion of iraq and other soveriegn countries because they may/might harbor terrorits,or may/might do terrorist attacks then we are no better than terrorists ourselves.-(and that does not mean i support or back the iraqi leader and his government because i certainly do not)- and THAT scares the sh*t out of me badly. i don't think bush is "drool-in-a-cup" stupid but he's not far from it. i also do not think he is evil but i CAN see how other countries think he,and by extension WE,are evil.     the world is a scary place these days

                                           ~DAVE