Frank's doesn't have psychic visions?

[Guest Doll]

I don’t understand why Carter insists that Frank isn’t actually having psychic visions.

As Lara would say: “Ok, here’s my thing” – if it has nothing to do with psychic capabilities then why does Frank picture the faces of perps he has never seen wearing the exact clothes they happen to be wearing? If that were so, I think when he’s getting these flashes he might see his subject shorter or taller, older or younger, &/or fatter or skinnier than he actually was. Wouldn’t those kinds of details be more ambiguous? Also, often he’s able to see their exact actions.

The scene that really indicates that he has psychic abilities is in The Thin White Line: IF HE ISN’T, THEN WHY CAN’T HE TOUCH THE PLAYING CARD LEFT @ THE CRIME SCENE!??!

So I don't care what Carter or Lance or anyone else says, he's having psychic visions.

[Guest ZeusFaber]

I have to disagree. Frank is not psychic, nor was ever meant to be. Yes, this got confused when other writers came in and couldn't understand how Frank's facility was meant to work, but the idea still remains that Frank was able to combine experience with expert methodology along with his exposing himself to the darkest side of human nature to piece together things so well that it appears like magic or psychic ability to those who lack this same understanding.

The dialogue in the pilot makes it very, very clear:

FRANK: I see what the killer sees.

BLETCHER: What, like a psychic?

FRANK: No. I put myself in his head. I become the thing we fear the most.

BLETCHER: How?

FRANK: I become capability. I become the horror, what we know we can become only in our heart of darkness. It’s my gift. It’s my curse. That’s why I retired.

As for your example from "The Thin White Line", it seems clear to me that Frank's actions regarding the playing cards are purely due to the memories of the case from years before. Nothing psychic about that.

As for being able to clearly see the faces of killers, I can't think of any instances where that was the case. Can you provide any examples?

At the end of the day, Chris Carter created the whole thing, so he should know best. Yes, things got muddled as the series went on, but that doesn't change that fact. I would recommend you watch the Academy Group featurettes on the DVD bonus features for a further insight into how these people can really make such amazing deductions in real life. They're not psychic either.

[Guest Doll]

I have to disagree. Frank is not psychic, nor was ever meant to be. Yes, this got confused when other writers came in and couldn't understand how Frank's facility was meant to work, but the idea still remains that Frank was able to combine experience with expert methodology along with his exposing himself to the darkest side of human nature to piece together things so well that it appears like magic or psychic ability to those who lack this same understanding.

The dialogue in the pilot makes it very, very clear:

FRANK: I see what the killer sees.

BLETCHER: What, like a psychic?

FRANK: No. I put myself in his head. I become the thing we fear the most.

BLETCHER: How?

FRANK: I become capability. I become the horror, what we know we can become only in our heart of darkness. It’s my gift. It’s my curse. That’s why I retired.

As for your example from "The Thin White Line", it seems clear to me that Frank's actions regarding the playing cards are purely due to the memories of the case from years before. Nothing psychic about that.

As for being able to clearly see the faces of killers, I can't think of any instances where that was the case. Can you provide any examples?

At the end of the day, Chris Carter created the whole thing, so he should know best. Yes, things got muddled as the series went on, but that doesn't change that fact. I would recommend you watch the Academy Group featurettes on the DVD bonus features for a further insight into how these people can really make such amazing deductions in real life. They're not psychic either.

Try not to be assumptive abt how many programs I've seen or how much research I've done on forensic psychology, forensic pathology, behavioral science, & profilers. On top of that my GP is the coroner for his parish & occasionally some of the officers I get to work out with let me pick their brains. I like to hear Vernon's (he's my Sensei) stories the most b/c he tells us about having to subdue criminals that occasionally go on a rampage while in court. It's most entertaining, hearing all the details and whether he put them into arm bars, knee locks, wrist locks, chokes, and their reactions (because of course in these fights there's more than one court officer involved).

While I don't remember specific examples right @ this moment, when I come across them at, my leisure for I don't have time to watch all of the 2 seasons that I have at once, I'll update you after I see what gave me those impressions.

I know what Carter intended, if he wanted to protect the integrity of the shows content he didn't do a good job. Even if some of those scenes are the other writers doing, they still suggest some sort of extrasensory perception. They say that Jordan is sensitive like Frank & has his gift. The gift may be to varying degrees in Jordan & Frank. But seeing angels has nothing to do with Jordan's expertise in anything. She's helped by her Grandma to draw an angel in, Midnight of the Century. Jordan also knows when Helen is abducted & that the man who's hurting her is "so angry." :wake_up!: Jordan doesn't have a career in law enforcement! If she has inherited it from Frank, then he has the extra sensory perception also. Frank sees Samael kill Allister in the parking lot but doesn't see him being shot by the gun Sammael is holding. He sees a lightening bolt coming out Samael's extended hand striking Allister. That has nothing to do w/profiling & expertise.

Since I've seen things like this in MM, I didn't think it was likely that Frank's refusal to take the card was based solely on his experience 20 yrs ago. If Carter never wanted Frank to be associated with psychic phenomenon he should be careful to not repeat the insinuating scenes that have appeared sporadically throughtout the seasons.

[Guest Doll]

oh, & i forgot to recomend some exquisite documentaries to watch if you like that sort of thing. this is the best i've seen for this type of documentary. I have the dvd, but i saw 2 of these listed on the a&e channel a few days ago. the dvd is the iceman interviews. the best is the iceman & the psychiatrist-as far as know that's only on the dvd. the other 2 that are on the dvd & advertised on a&e are: the iceman conversations w/a killer & the iceman secrets of a mafia hitman. dr dietz interviews him in my favorite one.

he didn't stick to one m.o. While he does display anti-social qualities, i was surprised to see in a cathartic episode while speaking of his children. i won't give away what he did but it was quite unexpected. another anomaly was that he felt badly sometimes after "dealing" with animals b/c he knew that they were totally defenseless, they didn't have even a little chance of getting away or stopping him.

ps to anyone reading this:

anti-social DOES NOT mean you don't like to go to parties & otherwise talk to people in a gathering type of setting.

It's specifically used to indicate a person w/no conscious, one who's incapable of empathy & loving another person. They have no behavioral limits & will do anything they want to others w/out any pangs of guilt or remorse. in kuklinski's case there's a very good chance that w/a normal childhood he wouldn't have become the person he is.

It's sad & curious. We are taught that characteristics or propensities that we inherit are still there b/c it gave our ancestors better chances @ survival. I wonder what % of the population of our forefathers passed on the propensity to be indiscriminant unrelenting serial killers. What were their exact experiences to further such characteristics?

We are closely related to chimps & they can be extremely violent & brutal, but I digress.

[Guest Moriarty]

Hi Doll. Welcome to these boards, hope you will be a long time poster -)

Hi Zeus. Hope everything is fine.

Don't want to step much into this discussion but I am sure that Frank never saw the image of the killer. He saw what the killer saw but only from that point of view. He looked through his eyes. That was it. That's what Carter intended.

Really, the gift of Frank is something that has not been discussed often on these boards. So thanks for starting up this thread Doll. Hope everyone joins in :-)

Edited May 21, 2007 by Moriarty

[Guest Doll]

Hi Doll. Welcome to these boards, hope you will be a long time poster -)

Hi Zeus. Hope everything is fine.

Don't want to step much into this discussion but I am sure that Frank never saw the image of the killer. He saw what the killer saw but only from that point of view. He looked through his eyes. That was it. That's what Carter intended.

Really, the gift of Frank is something that has not been discussed often on these boards. So thanks for starting up this thread Doll. Hope everyone joins in :-)

hi & thanks.

my first name's heidi, using either is fine.

i know he intended that way but then why w/d Jordan have it @ a time in her life when she couldn't possibly have ever been exposed to the experiences that Frank has? I don't care either way (i was elated when the series started with that concept) but if that's the storyline these other hints shouldn't have appeared in any episodes whatsoever. if they weren't there, it w/dn't have popped up as a question. they're not in sync. what about motc? check it out: w/out seeing a body the profiler/forensic pathologist probably would have said, "one or more parts of the body were amputated/severed completely. Most likely, the ____ and/or _____"

ex: let's say my boyfriend has said he's in love w/me-yatta, yatta, yatta. if he only spends the night w/me 2 /3 times a month on avg (or less) & takes me to lunch twice a month & i don't see him at any other times - i w/d tend to believe that his statement must not be entirely accurate b/c if i'm in love w/him he's gonna be sleeping over much more often.

& i wouldn't be surprised if i was wrong abt the faces, recently, i was up for 3 nights & in between i was trying to have my own personal MM marathon on top of everything else i normally do. i'm not in a huge hurry to watch all of them again like that. it gets a little weird when you haven't slept for a while.

[Guest ZeusFaber]

Try not to be assumptive abt how many programs I've seen or how much research I've done

Er, I haven't made any assumptions. Just pointed to some relevant materials pertinent to the issue at hand.

I know what Carter intended, if he wanted to protect the integrity of the shows content he didn't do a good job

That's one way of looking at it. I said before that this became muddled as the series went on. Most strongly of all in Season 2 when Glen Morgan and James Wong were showrunners. Episodes such as "A Single Blade of Grass" and "Midnight of the Century" were two of the worst offenders. So yes, it did come to contradict the original intension established very firmly back in the pilot. It's one of the reasons I'm not so fond of Season 2.

What I find strange is that you viewed this from a strange angle, saying that Frank was definitely psychic and Chris Carter and Lance Henriksen were wrong, rather than Frank was not meant to be psychic and later writers were wrong.

[Guest Laurent.]

I'll just had my own simple opinion on the matter:

Frank was never meant to be psychic in the original idea of the series. The flashes were never meant to represent what Frank actually sees but only used as a tool to help the viewers understand what he's thinking. So if the actual killer showed up in the flashes (can't think of any particular episode.... maybe "A Single Blade of Grass") it's just because it is a lot more convenient to do so than to use a different actor. Now, I don't remember any instance where Frank would recognize a killer based solely on the physical attributes he "saw" in his "visions".

There are no doubts in my mind that in some episodes in seasons 2&3 and in the last part of season 1 there were hints (and sometimes definite proof) that there was indeed something supernatural about Frank's gift. This is mainly due to some misunderstandings about Frank's character within the writing team. Was it a good move to make Frank a psychic? I'm sure we'll get almost as many answers to that as there are members here.

[Guest Doll]

What I find strange is that you viewed this from a strange angle, saying that Frank was definitely psychic and Chris Carter and Lance Henriksen were wrong, rather than Frank was not meant to be psychic and later writers were wrong.

that was a reference, of humor, pointed towards my mom's family's over-the-top stubbornness & was written w/a smile.

[Guest Doll]

The flashes were never meant to represent what Frank actually sees but only used as a tool to help the viewers understand what he's thinking.

THANK YOU, that's the kind of clarification I was searching for. Not blind regurgitation, but original feelings & concepts. That's the type of info I don't always pick up on, (lit wasn't my best subject).

I never understood why some people, like me & my sister: my sis will accept everything no questions asked about - let's say the faith we were brought up in, while after I was 16 I wanted to know what the other denominations were about & is something more unconventional perhaps, suitable to my values & my thoughts on society. I wanted to know why it was so important to some extended family members that I might not attend regularly when there's still a good person here practicing faith alone & in my own fashion. Most people who are regulars pick & choose what to observe, so how are they different?

thanks again but a lot of times actions speak louder than words & b/c of this I might've been more aware of the actual content of the series rather than an incongruous concept conceived before the episodes were filmed.

I was actually looking for a confirmation of why he wasn't psychic b/c the original concept is what actually hooked me. I was ecstatic when I saw the preview for the first time. Sorry, guys but every once in while you've got to look at it from the other side to help find what you want & like I mentioned before solely repeating that original idea to myself was not doing the trick.

So is it your opinion that Jordan's ability is what (- a redundant mishap of the writers)? She's not a profiler.