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Frank's doesn't have psychic visions?


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Guest F_Black

I'm a bit torn. I know Carter and many others involved with the show deny anything supernatural with Frank or Jordan, but what eventually got written and put on screen can't be explained any other way:

-- Frank *sees* the demons in "Somehow Satan. . .'

-- Frank and Jordan see the spirits of the soon-to-be-dead in 'Midnight of the Century'

-- Frank's mother knows when her uncle(?) died at Normandy

-- Frank sees a demon in the window in 'The Curse of. . .'

-- Frank *talks* to a freakin' dead guy in 'The Curse of. . .'

-- Frank sees what's-his-name shooting holy rays in ' Powers, Principalities. . .'

-- Frank sees the aurora borealis in 'Luminary'

-- And Lucy Butler, helloooooo?

I understand his 'visions', at least in some episodes, are just a visual construct to allow the viewer to realize he's 'seeing' *something*. But there was eventually too much there to keep that up.

And I do not believe in psychics. At.All.

But I still like those episodes the best. Heh.

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Guest ZeusFaber

No one is denying that these things occurred later in the series, and that the issue got more confused the later you got into it, but the point is that Chris Carter didn't intend for this to be the case when he created the show at the beginning.

It was other writers who steered the show further in these directions, most notably Glen Morgan & James Wong when they took control in S2, which Carter had no part of. Virtually all of your above examples are from the second season, and indeed that is one strong reason why some fans, such as myself, are not so keen on it in comparison to the others.

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
I'm a bit torn. I know Carter and many others involved with the show deny anything supernatural with Frank or Jordan, but what eventually got written and put on screen can't be explained any other way:

-- Frank *sees* the demons in "Somehow Satan. . .'

-- Frank and Jordan see the spirits of the soon-to-be-dead in 'Midnight of the Century'

-- Frank's mother knows when her uncle(?) died at Normandy

-- Frank sees a demon in the window in 'The Curse of. . .'

-- Frank *talks* to a freakin' dead guy in 'The Curse of. . .'

-- Frank sees what's-his-name shooting holy rays in ' Powers, Principalities. . .'

-- Frank sees the aurora borealis in 'Luminary'

-- And Lucy Butler, helloooooo?

I understand his 'visions', at least in some episodes, are just a visual construct to allow the viewer to realize he's 'seeing' *something*. But there was eventually too much there to keep that up.

And I do not believe in psychics. At.All.

But I still like those episodes the best. Heh.

Personally, I try not to dissect the episodes too much myself, and the ones you list are all exceptional ones. In fact, all 5 stars in my book. I think a lot of the problem lies in the individuals perception and understanding of the word psychic and what determines if someone is sensitive, has a high level of intuition, has an isolated or occasional psychic event, or is a true psychic. In my opinion, none of the episodes implied that Frank was a psychic in the classic sense of the word. Many people have been known to have a single "psychic" episode, and then to never have another one. Frank did have more than one incident that might arguably be considered psychic, but everything is exaggerated on TV. For example, from what little I have seen of 24, Jack Bauer seems to get in a shoot out or draw his weapon in every episode, while a real agent probably only draw his gun a few of times in his entire career, let alone participating in a shootout. I admit that some of the writers did blur the line a little bit, but I don't think it detracted from the episodes or overall integrity of the show. I don't criticize the people who can't get past these little "problems", for lack of a better word, but to me, good is good, and the episodes you mention, along with the recently discussed "Mikado" are so good that they far outshine any faults.

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Psychic, is a term used to describe phenomena or abilities that are said to originate from the brain but which transcend its confines. The term Psychic is commonly used in reference to the paranormal in general, but is more accurately applied to phenomena which are said to involve Psi. People who are said to possess psychic abilities are referred to as "psychics".

Intuition has many related meanings, usually connected to the meaning "ability to sense or know immediately without reasoning", including:

Intuition (knowledge) - understanding without apparent effort, quick and ready insight seemingly independent of previous experiences or empirical knowledge

Frank is obviously Intuitive. I had to break out my school books for this one. LOL

I tend to think with Franks vast knowledge of behavioral science(serial killers) along with his gift must really get him down in the dumps. This is heavy stuff. I worked 5yrs in social services with juvenile offenders and a brief stint in Corrections working therapy with molesters. This was way heavy stuff.

Lance's acting skills brought this dark brooding profiler to life

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
Psychic, is a term used to describe phenomena or abilities that are said to originate from the brain but which transcend its confines. The term Psychic is commonly used in reference to the paranormal in general, but is more accurately applied to phenomena which are said to involve Psi. People who are said to possess psychic abilities are referred to as "psychics".

Intuition has many related meanings, usually connected to the meaning "ability to sense or know immediately without reasoning", including:

Intuition (knowledge) - understanding without apparent effort, quick and ready insight seemingly independent of previous experiences or empirical knowledge

Frank is obviously Intuitive. I had to break out my school books for this one. LOL

I tend to think with Franks vast knowledge of behavioral science(serial killers) along with his gift must really get him down in the dumps. This is heavy stuff. I worked 5yrs in social services with juvenile offenders and a brief stint in Corrections working therapy with molesters. This was way heavy stuff.

Lance's acting skills brought this dark brooding profiler to life

Ah yes, the key point I took from your post was that you had to break out your school books to define these phrases. I think this says a lot, as writers on the show might also not have known exactly where to draw the line as far as what Frank is capable of, and the extents of his "gift". Also, if, or should I say when, the writers crossed over the intended boundaries, the show runners (admittedly Morgan and Wong) or other higher ups, might have said "Eh, what's the difference, the public will never know the difference anyway." I still don't think the line was crossed that often or in a way that was too obvious. For example, unless I'm forgetting something, in Luminary, I don't think Frank came across as being a psychic. I viewed him knowing that Alex was not the floater as intuition, or gut feeling, more than as a psychic revelation. After all, he didn't get a psychic vision of Alex being alive or anything like that. Either way, I don't feel that the show lost its realism or integrity in these episodes. Anyone who watches TV, or movies for that matter, is well aware that there are often inconsistencies, inaccuracies, mistakes and writer oversight that slip through the cracks.

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Guest Laurent.

Well I think there were times where some writers didn't feel the need to dissimulate the supernatural aspects of the show. Season 2 in its entirety felt a lot more mythical than the others (in my dictionary: angels & demons = supernatural) hence supernatural. I don't think they were afraid to get out of the mold that Carter had designed for the show, especially when M&W took command and Frank's gift changed as much as the series did.

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Guest F_Black
Well I think there were times where some writers didn't feel the need to dissimulate the supernatural aspects of the show. Season 2 in its entirety felt a lot more mythical than the others (in my dictionary: angels & demons = supernatural) hence supernatural. I don't think they were afraid to get out of the mold that Carter had designed for the show, especially when M&W took command and Frank's gift changed as much as the series did.

Having thought about it overnight, I'm inclined to. . .you know, they didn't really. . . .

Hmmm. I was going to post that I thought they largely stayed true to the 'Frank's not a psychic' idea, an instead went for more mythology/supernatural angle. I differentiate this from the usual portrayal of "psychics" who are supposed to "see" actual events or things. Then I thought that, well, in "The Hand of St. Sebastian" he "saw" Peter getting all shot up with arrows, but that doesn't really play into the whole psychics-seeing-real-events thing.

Then again, seeing an aurora borealis (Luminary) is pretty much "seeing" a real event.

I guess I kinda come down on both sides. I have a thing against "psychics" and refuse to watch the other show that is even titled "Psychic" (I think). But even with all this supernatural gobbledygook and Frank seeing demons and such, it doesn't bother me, because I still don't think of him as "psychic" in the usual sense. Supernatural stuff, when presented as such, I enjoy.

I probably have a negative view of anything involving so-called psychics because it's been passed off as a purely natural ability that, gosh, really ought to be scientifically based even though it's never been scientifically demonstrated.

So, eh, whatever. Just me rambling. . . . .

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  • 3 weeks later...

Even megan admits the impressions a lot of the scenes involving Frank's visions convey:

People Online interview 11-96

...is Frank Black psychic?

Megan: Technically, no. But it sure seems that way, doesn't it? I do know he was one of the original Psychic Friends, right there with Dionne Warwick.

Before the xf's came out cc also voiced the intention that the 2 lead characters weren't supposed to become romantically involved like the characters on nypd bleu, etc. They were supposed to have a strong, pleutonic, work relationship.

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Making season 2 documntry:

Lance: “This is just my opinion now, of how the show changed w/Morgan & Wong. They got a bit of a tongue in cheek thing about it. It became less serious. It became more of a kind of theorial, you know, I don’t know how to describe it. In doing the shows they became shows abt kind of fairy tales rather than very dark cases that had a deeper reality in them.”

I for one like the original premise, as Lance states: 'very dark cases that had a deeper reality in them.' :devil::praying:

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  • 3 weeks later...

now i don't want to open up the whole 'what is psychic' can of worms, and i strongly agree that Frank was not intended at least to be psychic. it is my understanding/belief that what we see/hear during one of his 'flashes', for lack of a better word, is, as others have said, largely based in what he experiences, but is rendered for the viewer to experience. there are certain limitations to an audiovisual medium, and those and the fact that the show (at least in my mind) is not told from Frank's pov mean that a certain amount of interpretation goes on. when i first started watching the show, i imagined there was an accompanying mental fuzziness of everything else - i don't know where this came from. but when i read the novelization of the pilot, it described a heat at the base of his neck, and that struck me as the oddest thing. i know i've read somewhere about what exactly was or wasn't in the script but for the life of me i can't remember it.

also, several people have pointed out that 'seeing angels' sounds a lot more psychic/supernatural than profiling, especially when performed by Jordan, or Linda, neither of whom have had the life experiences/training Frank had. no one, unless i've read this wrong, mentions Lara's first angel, which she saw when she was also very young. i have several points to make about this, and they may get convoluted.

- at some point, and for the life of me i can't recall when exactly, Frank says he manipulated his gift. in my understanding, this means he's gone from being a passive viewer/interpreter (can't find a better word) of these signals of evil that others see/sense to actively integrating these detection abilities into profiling.

-in MOTC (where the line above may come from, and thus it's not from CC's mind anymore) he says he's seeing differently, more intensely, since joining TMG. i kind of took that to mean (mainly) that more cases + more research = better honed skills

- i think the angel as harbinger of doom is similarly an interpretation, but closer to what is seen. winged psychopomps are common throughout the world and time. its use in Christian mythology makes it more a messenger of the living than the dead. so that all the characters who see anything see angels (Frank sees them in MOTC and it's implied he may have originally, though he's done some manipulating by Curse) is not surprising given they were all born into/exposed to Christian environments. i think an angel's an expected image which manifests when they feel something, but i'm personally at a loss to say what exactly is being felt. i believe there are realms of the mind we don't understand and that they do not fall in the realm of supernatural.

- nothing, who unfortunately does not believe in a world like that in MM

believes...

this is who we are

we can't just sit back and hope for a happy ending

i couldn't swear it wasn't just an incredibly realistic simulation. not just the scenery, my whole life.

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