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Frank's doesn't have psychic visions?

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Guest SouthernCelt
~~StevenmTaylor~~ Carter himself seemed to capitulate though, in episodes like 7and 1 and the Lucy Butler-centric 3rd season epi, the name escapes me at the moment, about the hedge-maze. (like, exactly how did Lucy manage to get into Frank's hotel room, enter his dreams, and get him to have sex with her in his sleep?)

And of course I've already pointed out Frank's admittance to Bob Bletcher in the pilot episode about his and the Millennium group's Apocalyptic aims. (As in to not just sit by and let Armaggeddon happen, but go out and catch its agents, apocalyptically-minded serial killers. I know I'm extrapolating here, but to me, that's pretty much what Frank copped to in Bob's office at the end of that ep.)

I don't know that Lucy's "abilities" had any bearing on whether Frank was psychic. I think it was pretty well established in season one that Lucy was a manifestation of Legion. In season 3 she was simply applying a new demonic torment to Frank by coming to him as a succubus with her true appearance being revealed when Frank awoke from what he thought was a dream. One of the aims of the succubus is to lure human men into a sinful relationship when they are at they weakest point -- asleep so that their conscious mind cannot reject the seduction -- and if they "like" the encounter, they become easier to turn to the "dark side."

I think Frank saw Lucy for what she was when he began to wake because his conscious mind knew what she was and that she was not the beautiful, sexy woman that most saw in her incarnations. Since Legion is a multiple demon force operating in concert and is both male and female, Lucy could become whatever suited his/her purposes at the moment.

I think Frank probably did start out in season one as being a highly insightful analyst of heinous crimes and not necessarily a psychic but he changed over time, possibly influenced by his work and frequently unpleasant encounters with the Group. I think the Group probably worked in a non-obvious manner to cause Frank's underlying and unused psychic ability to come to the surface and, only after they saw that Frank would never be the cooperative Group member they wished him to be, did they shift their focus to Jordan who was still at a trainable, malleable age with little understanding of her abilities. I would have thought Frank himself would have dropped his insistence that he wasn't psychic after both he and Jordan, and only those two, saw the procession of "shades" pass the church in "Midnight of the Century." Whether the decision to take Frank's character toward the psychic side was controlled by Morgan and Wong or was at least tacitly agreed to by Carter, I don't know.

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Guest Doll
Eb is fine, I've also been called Edith, kinda as a joke, E-Flat... as long as it isn't "You Suck!" I'm fine.

~ein042~~ I actually don't think Frank ever exibited many psychopathic tendencies. He was able to make a killer believe he sympathised with him/her but he rarely carried a gun and was responsible for very few deaths.

At the end of season 3 he wanted to kill to protect his daughter, but that's more of a instinct than an abberant homocidal behavior.

I'm a fan of psychology :makingeyes:, & while I don't remember everything from my classes, I never viewed Frank as antisocial, psychopathic, schizophrenic, narcissitic,....

He didn't exhibit any psychopathic tendencies & while I was considering psycopath "but not in the true sense of the word," (- ein042) I wasn't able to grasp it. A 'pseudopsycopath;' I'm not doing a good job of convincing myself of that. As with any condition, there are symptoms; but I can't attribute any of them to Frank. I personally, didn't notice Frank being symptomatic even in a pseudopsycopathic manner.

{However, I did suggest, in another topic - that Frank's "willingness" to murder the polaroid killer was fueled by temporary insanity. To be temporarily insane disconnects the afflicted from all concepts of right / wrong & the consequential outcome of their actions @ the moment in question.}

Ebdim9th - "He was able to make a killer believe he sympathized with him/her"

A friend of mine tried to get me to apply for a job in corrections. He told me that I'd probably be good @ b/c I'm not a judgemental person; I think he meant I'm not as judgemental but was trying to 'butter me up'. (I have no desire to be pelted w/human waste & didn't apply.)

Being less or non-judgemental & non-critical helped Frank to achieve a sympathetic persona. There were some scenes that made me think that he was sympathetic to certain degrees w/some different offenders. Part of psychology or profiling is understanding nature vs nurture, environmental triggers and such, I believe when Frank was sympathetic & non-critical it was rooted in the understanding of that person's history & his mental condition(s).

Southern Celt - I think the Group probably worked in a non-obvious manner to cause Frank's underlying and unused psychic ability to come to the surface and, only after they saw that Frank would never be the cooperative Group member they wished him to be, did they shift their focus to Jordan who was still at a trainable, malleable age with little understanding of her abilities. I would have thought Frank himself would have dropped his insistence that he wasn't psychic after both he and Jordan, and only those two, saw the procession of "shades" pass the church in "Midnight of the Century." Whether the decision to take Frank's character toward the psychic side was controlled by Morgan and Wong or was at least tacitly agreed to by Carter, I don't know.

:smokin: People, People: Another insightful post by Celt, thanks for the input. :clapping:

:alien::eyes: THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR THEIR INPUT; I GUESS, EVEN BLiSS & HpD! :jumping::oneeyedwinK

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
:smokin: People, People: Another insightful post by Celt, thanks for the input. :clapping:

:alien::eyes: THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR THEIR INPUT; I GUESS, EVEN BLiSS & HpD! :jumping::oneeyedwinK

EVEN me and Joe??? Quite big of you to extend a thank you even to those of us on the bottom rung of the social ladder..... even a couple of ole lepers like Joe and I. Sheeeesh. :oneeyedwinK

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Guest ein042
Eb

~ein042~~ I actually don't think Frank ever exibited many psychopathic tendencies. He was able to make a killer believe he sympathised with him/her but he rarely carried a gun and was responsible for very few deaths.

At the end of season 3 he wanted to kill to protect his daughter, but that's more of a instinct than an abberant homocidal behavior.

I don’t know if that explains how he finds them first. I’m sure that was part of his gift but I think he would have been able to live with that. Catherine could have too.

Frank was uncomfortable with his ability.

Doll;

I'm a fan of psychology , & while I don't remember everything from my classes, I never viewed Frank as antisocial, psychopathic, schizophrenic, narcissitic,....

He didn't exhibit any psychopathic tendencies & while I was considering psycopath "but not in the true sense of the word," (- ein042) I wasn't able to grasp it. A 'pseudopsycopath;' I'm not doing a good job of convincing myself of that. As with any condition, there are symptoms; but I can't attribute any of them to Frank. I personally, didn't notice Frank being symptomatic even in a pseudopsycopathic manner.

{However, I did suggest, in another topic - that Frank's "willingness" to murder the polaroid killer was fueled by temporary insanity. To be temporarily insane disconnects the afflicted from all concepts of right / wrong & the consequential outcome of their actions @ the moment in question.}

Okay I could probably accept temporary insanity, but that still leaves us with the fact that Catherine, who possibly had training in therapy, was so disturbed by his actions that she suggested a separation. She had issues with the group’s effect on him but she still feared him. Going back to the old familiar dialog;

FRANK: I see what the killer sees.

BLETCHER: What, like a psychic?

FRANK: No. I put myself in his head. I become the thing we fear the most.

BLETCHER: How?

FRANK: I become capability. I become the horror - what we know we can become only in our heart of darkness. It's my gift. It's my curse. That's why I retired.

Frank ‘Becomes’ the psychopath somehow. Temporary maybe, but he fears it. Catherine fears it. Because it’s an alien state, an alter ego.

Celt;

I would have thought Frank himself would have dropped his insistence that he wasn't psychic after both he and Jordan, and only those two, saw the procession of "shades" pass the church in "Midnight of the Century." Whether the decision to take Frank's character toward the psychic side was controlled by Morgan and Wong or was at least tacitly agreed to by Carter, I don't know.

Exactly. Probably the same stubbornness that made Scully insist on finding a scientific explanation.

Not sure how this went from Frank’s gift to Frank’s pathology. Sorry I sidetracked

and it’s just my opinion

Sorry, I just noticed I used Zesu's original argument for why Frank wasn't psychic. The quote containing "I become capability"

only I used it to point to his mental state.

I think it was an experiment. Frank's profile was rejected by Geiblehouse and everyone in this episode primarily because it was considered to be too close to a psychic experience. Something abhorrent to most police detectives.

IMO Carter didn't want an outright admission or clarification of Frank's gift at this stage of the game.

Edited by ein042
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Guest ein042
EVEN me and Joe??? Quite big of you to extend a thank you even to those of us on the bottom rung of the social ladder..... even a couple of ole lepers like Joe and I. Sheeeesh. :oneeyedwinK

Careful!! Her new avatar might eat you! :helpme:

(Unless she's changed it. :embarassed: )

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
Careful!! Her new avatar might eat you! :helpme:

(Unless she's changed it. :embarassed: )

Yes, that is a scary looking avatar, speaking of which, still no Ein with his dog food bowl. Either you changed it back, or my computer just wants to deprive me.

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Guest ein042

No I haven't changed it back. Not sure why it's not showing up for you.

Maybe I'm in room 1408 where you only see what you fear the most, lol!

I have no clue what the movie's really about I haven't seen it yet, but I'm in the middle of the short story it was based on and seeing things that aren't there is pretty prevalent.

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
No I haven't changed it back. Not sure why it's not showing up for you.

Maybe I'm in room 1408 where you only see what you fear the most, lol!

I have no clue what the movie's really about I haven't seen it yet, but I'm in the middle of the short story it was based on and seeing things that aren't there is pretty prevalent.

Sense you did it as a personal favor to me, and seeing that I'm not reaping the benifits, feel free to change your avatar to whatever you want. :oneeyedwinK I'm not sure what 1408 is about either, but it looks pretty good based on the previews.

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Guest ein042

It does look good.

I work tonight so I'm not finishing the story now. Enough things freak me out at night, I'll wait till morning.

:ghostface:

G'nite all

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Guest Ebdim9th

As a general reply to what ~SourthernCelt~ (especially, and so rightly) and others posted, I was using the Chris Carter-written episodes to demonstrate that he at least allowed the supernatural to be a part of the story, something I linked back to what must have been his original intention some how, considering the recurring Apocalyptic/Millennial themes.

And that might include an underlying psychic basis for Frank's gift in gaining access to the all-too-human heart of darkness.(wow, this place is hoppin' like the Bronze Beta, I can barely keep up! Excellent!!!)

Eta(2) ~ THe Bronze Beta is the still-active official fansite of Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Edited by Ebdim9th
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