New info on Knights Templar

[4th Horseman]

Wayne...have you seen this article yet??

https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21267691/?GT1=10450

4th Horseman

[Raven Wolf]

"Disbanded for the good of the church"... Yeah, right.

They were MURDERED on 10-13 of all days! (it was also a Friday, and this is where the superstition of Friday the 13th being bad came from)

BTW, I am moving this thread, since this section is for Real World Millennium-themed news stores. Serial killers and the like.

No offense intended, Horseman. Just trying to make the boards more "user friendly".

Thanks for this article!

[Guest Laurent.]

Sorry about the double posting but I don't know which topic about this news is going to survive so I thought that I would just repost this here for now:

Originally posted by me:

My local newspaper mentioned that another accusation held against the Templars was that their initiative rites comported some bizarre mandatory homosexual relations ;including sodomy and "illicit kissing" (I just translated word for word). According to the long-lost text, they stated in their defense that it was a way to lose any sort of individual honor, esteem and pride in the body.

Frankly, I'm quite surprised that their explications were enough to force the pope to absolve the Templars of these charges. Looks like an improvised excuse made up by a teenage boy who has just been caught with his pants down and the neighbors' daughter. I guess some people were a lot more naive and a lot less strict back then than they are today.

[Raven Wolf]

Laran,

You've done nothing wrong. This is where we've been trying to direct all such discussions, to keep the Real World section more focused on Millennium-like stories of bizzare serial killers, etc.

And, as for the "improvised excuse", people have always been making up such stories to demonize other people. Anyone that the "establishment" doesn't like can be called a Witch and burned at the stake, or called "gay" and have their names disgraced and be treated like garbage. (as if being "gay" should EVER be something to be ashamed of! Rubbish!)

People still make up these kinds of stories even today, to try to use FEAR as a tool to separate us all.

[Guest Laurent.]

Good point! I guess it is really too late to be able to have a clear judgment on the Templars. A lot of the sources I have consulted seem to think that King Philip IV accused the Templars of heresy and immorality because it was to his advantage to get rid of their organization due to his increasing debt (more money = more problems I guess). But if we are to believe the Chinon parchment; the Templars did not deny the accusations but instead, they justified their acts. And it is with the justifications that I have a problem.. of course I don't want to imply that being gay would in anyway affect their reputation... but if there was forced sodomy in their initiation rites; I'll have to say that my view of the proud and righteous templar has been shaken quite a bit.

Then again, I can't even imagine how homosexuality was considered by the Church at that time (I can't even understand their modern view of it). So the King's accusations might not reflect what really happened. It could just be an ordinary love story between two men that was taken out of proportions by the values of the time. I guess we will never know...

The Templars seem to the victim of even more gossip and rumors than Tom Cruise.. anyone knows a good web source that I could consult for real, proved, historical facts?

Edited October 16, 2007 by Laurent.

[Guest SouthernCelt]

Good point! I guess it is really too late to be able to have a clear judgment on the Templars. A lot of the sources I have consulted seem to think that King Philip IV accused the Templars of heresy and immorality because it was to his advantage to get rid of their organization due to his increasing debt (more money = more problems I guess).

From what I've read over the years, it went further than Philip wanting to rid himself of the Templars; he wanted their amassed fortune that was hidden away for financing their activities. A lot of sources estimate the Templar fortune as exceeding the Vatican hoard at the time.

The Templars seem to the victim of even more gossip and rumors than Tom Cruise.. anyone knows a good web source that I could consult for real, proved, historical facts?

I've not found any good web sources for the Templars. Most get off the Templar history into the various theories about what happened to the Templar fortune, how connected are the modern Masons to the Templars and such other more modern affairs. There are, however, a wealth of books that go into significant detail on the Templars even though they too tend to connect the Templar era to later events and organizations. One I found immensely readable was called "Born in Blood" (don't remember the author); it was written around 30 years ago by an older academian that had spent a lot of his career studying various records about the Templars.

[stuartW]

From what I've read over the years, it went further than Philip wanting to rid himself of the Templars; he wanted their amassed fortune that was hidden away for financing their activities. A lot of sources estimate the Templar fortune as exceeding the Vatican hoard at the time.

I've not found any good web sources for the Templars. Most get off the Templar history into the various theories about what happened to the Templar fortune, how connected are the modern Masons to the Templars and such other more modern affairs. There are, however, a wealth of books that go into significant detail on the Templars even though they too tend to connect the Templar era to later events and organizations. One I found immensely readable was called "Born in Blood" (don't remember the author); it was written around 30 years ago by an older academian that had spent a lot of his career studying various records about the Templars.

I have read extensively on the Templars and can endorse Southern Celt's recommendation "Born in Blood" is by John J Robinson and is an excellent resource for further details on the Templars. King Philip of France also called Philip the Fair (Not because he was a fair king but because of his light colour) had been given protection by the Templars and while being housed in their protection realised the great wealth that they possessed. Then greed overtook any gratitude he may of had and when he was in financial trouble, he even devalued the coinage of France to help him prop up his reign, he planned how he could get his hands on their wealth. As they say the rest is history.

StuartW

[Raven Wolf]

I remember seeing a copy of "Born in Blood" in a local bookstore. Maybe I should go back & get it!

I have a friend who's probably the biggest wealth of information you could hope for on Freemasons and the Knights. He's just always so busy that it's hard to learn much from him.

[Raven Wolf]

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