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Borrowed Time

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Guest Jim McLean

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Guest ilweran
I also liked how we never saw any indication as to what derailed the train. I presume we are to assume he seals the cabin so there can be no escape for those who must give back their borrowed time so someone else can share in it, and when the train is mysteriously derailed, the irony comes in the fact that his actions places those in the cabin on borrowed time. Whether this was an intervention from God or something darker is ambiguous.

:hiya: Hello to the forum

Just wanted to give my thoughts on this, as watching it and wanting answers is what made me sign up to the forum.

My interpretation is that the people on 'borrowed time' drowned so that those people on the train could live. He locked them in to save them - if he hadn't they would have drowned. It's the only thing that makes sense to me, especially considering he himself drowned to achieve this.

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Guest Laurent.

Exactly, a person had to die for each one that would survive the train wreck. Jordan was dying because her "borrowed time" was now being given to the little girl from the train. But the angel, in an ultimate sacrifice, decided that he would give his own life instead of Jordan's to assure the survival of the young girl.

I guess it shows Jordan also has a special bond with the spiritual world. What other reason would the angel have to give his immortal life to save her and not anyone else?

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Guest Jim McLean
:hiya: Hello to the forum

Just wanted to give my thoughts on this, as watching it and wanting answers is what made me sign up to the forum.

My interpretation is that the people on 'borrowed time' drowned so that those people on the train could live. He locked them in to save them - if he hadn't they would have drowned. It's the only thing that makes sense to me, especially considering he himself drowned to achieve this.

I think my only problem with the episode - and on reflection I think this is a very accurate summary of the story's intent - is I didn't feel the Angel appeared to be sacrificing himself - he seemed more surprised than prepared for the circumstance.

But that's how it came across to me - not how I think it was meant to seem. Given a similar remark was made on the season 3 DVD (that the Angel sacrificed himself), this seems very much what was meant to be the crux of the finale.

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Interesting stuff methinks....

The rich stuff demands that you dispense with the idea of Angels, the script asserts that Mr.-Dark-and-Ponderous is Samiel a demon fully fledged. Hot-footing to Wikipedia has all the obvious-rubbish regarding Samiel, Poison of God and Lord of Whores and so on but in the more arcane tomes that the Millennium scribes seem to have flicked through have all the thematic gubbings this episode used. Samiel is the Guardian of the Book, the Christian equivalent of the Norns or Santasima Muerte. Its task was to measure the 'Thread of Life' and cut or lengthen accordingly. Ancient Jewish lore stated that he was bound by the dictates of God not Satan and in something equivalent of fair play was honour bound to exchange his years of hellish bondage in respect of souls not written in the Book Of Life.

Laredo is on target when noting Samiel's apparent consternation at the untimely sacrifice expected of him, it fits oh so neatly with the whole mythos attributed him.

Of course I may be reading wayyyy too much into it but then it's a bad habit I simply can't stop lol.

A decent episode methinks...

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Guest massofspikes

Was there any significance at all to the man who stormed out of the cabin in a huff because the train had been delayed? I've always had the feeling that there was, but that I couldn't quite place a finger on it.

You'll notice that 3/4ths of the roster making up those who drowned on land was demographically similar to those within the cabin: two adult women and an adult male. Two adult women and an adult male were similarly saved by Sammiel's locking of the cabin. Had the man who left the cabin remained, there would have been two adult males, a young girl, and an adult woman, and THAT would have matched exactly the characteristics of those who were having their "borrowed time" revoked: two adult males (let's assume Sammiel to be one, then the "shut-in"), a young girl (Jordan), and an adult woman (the one in the park). Ultimately, what this "means"--so to speak--I don't know, if anything at all.

Regardless, I feel the scene was included for some purpose, but perhaps it was merely for irony's sake: if the guy hadn't been so impatient (he mentions "time being wasted," I think; hint, hint), he'd have survived the wreck.

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Was there any significance at all to the man who stormed out of the cabin in a huff because the train had been delayed? I've always had the feeling that there was, but that I couldn't quite place a finger on it.

You'll notice that 3/4ths of the roster making up those who drowned on land was demographically similar to those within the cabin: two adult women and an adult male. Two adult women and an adult male were similarly saved by Sammiel's locking of the cabin. Had the man who left the cabin remained, there would have been two adult males, a young girl, and an adult woman, and THAT would have matched exactly the characteristics of those who were having their "borrowed time" revoked: two adult males (let's assume Sammiel to be one, then the "shut-in"), a young girl (Jordan), and an adult woman (the one in the park). Ultimately, what this "means"--so to speak--I don't know, if anything at all.

Regardless, I feel the scene was included for some purpose, but perhaps it was merely for irony's sake: if the guy hadn't been so impatient (he mentions "time being wasted," I think; hint, hint), he'd have survived the wreck.

I've always thought the same way. Unfortuately, there was no follow up on that particular scene...in regards to Samiel giving his own life, its obviously tied in with Frank's prayer to God. Biblically, angels are empowered by God to perform various functions, so i dont think that Samiel himself actually made the decision to give his own life, for how does an angel who really is not of flesh and blood, give his own life?? He was obviously unseen by nearly everyone EXCEPT Frank and the little girl. The doctor did not see him in the garden when Frank found the watch, neither did the other members of the traincar when he locked the door. What i dont quite understand is why Hollis was allowed to see him as well, in the funeral home and on the stretcher at the hospital...that little hiccup just does not fit in the plot, however, remember, Samiel being sent to take those whose time were up, was ultimately taken himself, but not in the physical sense we know as humans, his expression on the gurney was one of peace, but perhaps Franks plea to God set this particular sequence of events in motion...

4th Horseman..

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Guest massofspikes

Your theory about angels acting upon the decree of God is one I never considered. Of course, this portrays a (G)od whose actions in this circumstance are, if nothing else, morally ambiguous: He would have let a little girl die (Jordan) had not Frank blurted out his "prayer"? (Boy, if that's the way it worked, there'd be a lot less tragedy in the world.) I'd always assumed that Sammiel was merely swayed by Frank's plea for Jordan's life and hence made the decision to give his own (in whatever way an "angel" can); in addition, I believe that anyone could see him if he chose to be visible, and being visible was perhaps a requisite if he were going to perform actions upon physical objects in the material world (for example, quietly reaching for the keys in the engineer's room; if the engineer had turned around, would he have merely seen keys floating in the air out the room? And if the engineer couldn't have seen him, why did Sammiel act with deliberate stealth in collecting said keys?)

So is the consensus among the fans, then, that Sammiel was not expecting to drown, that, as God's puppet, he'd no idea that the strings had gone ahead and been severed? If so, I guess that blows my theory out of the water...no pun intended.

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  • Elders (Moderators)

Well, I've always had the impression that Sammiel didn't know he was going to die there in the train until he actually drowned. To me, he seems a bit surprised at first on that scene, maybe even scared (can an angel be scared?), then he just lets go, approving the situation. But then again, I could be wrong. :tongue:

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Your theory about angels acting upon the decree of God is one I never considered. Of course, this portrays a (G)od whose actions in this circumstance are, if nothing else, morally ambiguous: He would have let a little girl die (Jordan) had not Frank blurted out his "prayer"? (Boy, if that's the way it worked, there'd be a lot less tragedy in the world.) I'd always assumed that Sammiel was merely swayed by Frank's plea for Jordan's life and hence made the decision to give his own (in whatever way an "angel" can); in addition, I believe that anyone could see him if he chose to be visible, and being visible was perhaps a requisite if he were going to perform actions upon physical objects in the material world (for example, quietly reaching for the keys in the engineer's room; if the engineer had turned around, would he have merely seen keys floating in the air out the room? And if the engineer couldn't have seen him, why did Sammiel act with deliberate stealth in collecting said keys?)

So is the consensus among the fans, then, that Sammiel was not expecting to drown, that, as God's puppet, he'd no idea that the strings had gone ahead and been severed? If so, I guess that blows my theory out of the water...no pun intended.

thats the mystery and beauty of MillenniuM...its in the eye of the beholder...my concern about the limited number of sightings was just blown out of the water when i realized that at the police station, when Frank attacked Samiel, there was a gaggle of fellow law enforcement personnel around..I dont know if i made myself very clear, but if i remember, Samiel wasnt even around when Frank was at Jordan's bedside, so it would have been physically impossible for him to have heard Frank, therefore, just by simple deduction, it would seem that God did intervene. Frank's prayer was not directed at Samiel..Also, there are clear examples of divine intervention throughout history, so your question concerning God's "moral ambiguity" would seem to indicate that you felt God was holding Jordan "hostage" until Frank, with no other human means available to save Jordan, and as has been stated here in all honesty when people are faced with tremendous adversity, and with no other direction to turn, went a knockin on God's door??.. Remember, its a TV show and boiled down to its basics, and considering that Frank had just lost his wife at the close of S2, it was only a formality that Jordan would be spared, regardless..

i dont think there is a consensus of opinion...your theory is as good as anyone elses, and it probably makes more sense than mine because i tend to see if from a religious perspective, which is TABOO to discuss here on the board, so with that, i shall turn it over to sharper minds than I...

4th Horseman...

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Guest massofspikes
Also, there are clear examples of divine intervention throughout history...

If the subject weren't "taboo," believe me, I'd be asking for citations right about now. ;)

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