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Question about S1 in general


Guest massofspikes

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Guest Jim McLean
I agree with Zeus on this one. There were no ranks in the first season. Frank was a member of the MM group and they were consulting for law enforcement. Morgan and Wong came with the idea of an old man and of ranks in the second season. Chris Carter his view on the group was totally different. He saw them as the Academy Group, a real group of former FBI-agents who helped to solve crimes. They are interviewed on the dvd's of the first season.

I'm not sure where this schism comes in this thread. We all agree, I just think much of the debate from arguing two different debates. Yes, its clear that season one didn't not have the Group hierarchy that season two had. I think we all can agree with that - no one I think would suggest otherwise who has seen season one and two.

But what is clear that the mythology changed and as such, how we view the "evidence" in season one also mutates.

From what I see, there is a clear difference between being a "member" of the Group and being what I would call, a core member. Frank is a consultant, and as with many consultants, while they can be contracted to an organisation, are not official members of that organisation. This is how I see Frank in season one. He's peripheral. He is employed by the group as a consultant, ergo he is a member of the organisation, but on a freelance contract. In season two, the Group look at moving him from consultant to core member, believing he is of the stuff capable of understanding the deeper truths of the Group which remain largely hidden from even peripheral members.

No, its not what was intended in season one, but the change in the Group's intent in season two is a retcon, but one we can easily recouncile with season one.

All in all, everyone is right. Yippee.

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
I agree with Zeus on this one. There were no ranks in the first season. Frank was a member of the MM group and they were consulting for law enforcement. Morgan and Wong came with the idea of an old man and of ranks in the second season. Chris Carter his view on the group was totally different. He saw them as the Academy Group, a real group of former FBI-agents who helped to solve crimes. They are interviewed on the dvd's of the first season.

What ranks are you referring to? In season one, we see people like Jim Horn brought to the group and referred to as a person they are considering as a member of the group. We also see Frank at the beginning stages of his involvement with the group, referring to himself and being referred to by others as doing some consulting for them. At no time in season one are we specifically told that Frank is an official member of the group and not a candidate. The writers start to expand on what the group is in season two, and such expansion is common in a show to prevent the show from spinning its wheels and rehashing the same old material. Just because somebody doesn't like this direction doesn't mean it didn't happen. In season two, we see that Frank is still a candidate, being considered as a member. Some are suggesting that he was made a member of the group in season one, and then suddenly, in season two, was not a member anymore, but was a candidate, being considered for membership. My question is, which episode in season one clearly stated that Frank was a member? In season two, the group still consists, at least to a large extent, of former FBI and law enforcement and still helps to solve crimes. They simply expand on the history of the group. Season 1 is vague about the group, and season two does nothing to go against anything what is established in season one. If someone can provide specific examples of how Frank was established as a member of the group in season one, or how the season two writers directly contradicted the season one writers, I stand corrected, but I can safely say that I wont agree with their interpretation of events. Maybe Chris Carter did have a different view of the group, but he left for the X-files and handed the project over to other writers. As far as I know, Carter didn't leave any strict instructions that the Millennium Group was not to be elaborated on or more clearly defined. The original question in the thread was about Frank's status in the group. We see in season one that there are members and candidates. We see in season two that Frank is not a member. We don't see anywhere in season one where Frank is established as a member.

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
I'm not sure where this schism comes in this thread. We all agree, I just think much of the debate from arguing two different debates. Yes, its clear that season one didn't not have the Group hierarchy that season two had. I think we all can agree with that - no one I think would suggest otherwise who has seen season one and two.

But what is clear that the mythology changed and as such, how we view the "evidence" in season one also mutates.

From what I see, there is a clear difference between being a "member" of the Group and being what I would call, a core member. Frank is a consultant, and as with many consultants, while they can be contracted to an organisation, are not official members of that organisation. This is how I see Frank in season one. He's peripheral. He is employed by the group as a consultant, ergo he is a member of the organisation, but on a freelance contract. In season two, the Group look at moving him from consultant to core member, believing he is of the stuff capable of understanding the deeper truths of the Group which remain largely hidden from even peripheral members.

No, its not what was intended in season one, but the change in the Group's intent in season two is a retcon, but one we can easily recouncile with season one.

All in all, everyone is right. Yippee.

I agree, this is a more concise and eloquent version of my bumbling version. Well stated.

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Guest Moriarty

Because everyone working for the MM group in season one is a member. Pensyres, Atkins, Watts, Black, they were all members. It isn't until season two that they introduced the ranks and the order in hiërachy. That was not the case in the first season. Please do not turn this into a first-second season is better thread.

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Guest ZeusFaber

^ Agreeing with what Moriarty said.

In S1, everyone is equal, there are no ranks and there is no hierarchy, there is no initiation procedure. Look at "Gehenna" -- they all shake hands and get to work, unlike the stuff we see in "Luminary" et al. I think people are getting confused with the term "consulting". In S1, the idea is that the Millennium Group is a consulting firm, and that Frank calls himself a "consultant" in the sense that he's one of many that belong to this consulting firm, and together they all consult for law enforcement, not that Frank is a step removed and "a consultant" as a rank below the rest of the Group.

S2 retconned things by making Frank and outsider and making Peter his mentor and all that. Some people love that and think it was essential and needed and positive. That's great, absolutely fine. Not everyone feels that way, but that's not the point. Like laren said, it's a retcon that some people liked and some people didn't, but we don't need to get into all that again. We just have to acknowledge that it was a retcon, for better or worse.

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
Because everyone working for the MM group in season one is a member. Pensyres, Atkins, Watts, Black, they were all members. It isn't until season two that they introduced the ranks and the order in hiërachy. That was not the case in the first season. Please do not turn this into a first-second season is better thread.

That's absurd. You are the one who turned this into a complaint about season two and Morgan and Wong with misrepresentations of the facts, and now you try to turn the tables and imply that I've done so. "Because everyone working for the MM group is a member"? That's your explanation? What about Jim Horn. He was working with the Millennium group and was not a member. He was specifically referred to by Peter, in season one, as a person who they were considering as a member. Just because you name three members of the group doesn't mean Frank was automatically a member, or that everyone who does work for the group is a member. The logic makes no sense. Given the fact that they don't specify that Frank was a member, them making him a candidate in season two is totally valid. To suggest the Millennium group was established as an organization without ranks in season 1 is also absurd. The police and FBI organizations that these people are coming from has ranks. A normal consulting group would most certainly have ranks. Every company I have ever worked for had ranks, such as president, vice president, office manager, etc. Even a grocery store has several different ranks. By your logic, if I got a job at a grocery store and could name 3 managers, I would automatically be a manager. Nothing in season two goes against what we see in season one, it expands on it. There IS NO retcon. There is no confusion about the term consulting. The fact is that Frank was at no time specified as a member of the group in the way that the group was described and defined in season two. The group was not clearly defined in season one, and season two does not contradict anything established in season one. I still don't know what ranks you are referring to. There are members and non members. Owls or Roosters are not ranks. It makes sense that people who have been with the group longer would be referred to as senior members and that there would be leaders within the group. You're creating something that does not exist because you don't approve of the season two writers. It's that simple and it's obvious to anyone who is following this objectively.

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Guest MillenniumIsBliss
^ Agreeing with what Moriarty said.

In S1, everyone is equal, there are no ranks and there is no hierarchy, there is no initiation procedure. Look at "Gehenna" -- they all shake hands and get to work, unlike the stuff we see in "Luminary" et al. I think people are getting confused with the term "consulting". In S1, the idea is that the Millennium Group is a consulting firm, and that Frank calls himself a "consultant" in the sense that he's one of many that belong to this consulting firm, and together they all consult for law enforcement, not that Frank is a step removed and "a consultant" as a rank below the rest of the Group.

S2 retconned things by making Frank and outsider and making Peter his mentor and all that. Some people love that and think it was essential and needed and positive. That's great, absolutely fine. Not everyone feels that way, but that's not the point. Like laren said, it's a retcon that some people liked and some people didn't, but we don't need to get into all that again. We just have to acknowledge that it was a retcon, for better or worse.

I don't agree that Watts was not a mentor figure for Frank in season one and that this was something invented in season two. In S1, there was simply no reason for anyone to act as a higher up. It would be a professional courtesy for them to treat Frank as an equal. That doesn't mean that Frank was automatically a group member. We don't see a lot of defining of the group in S1, and we don't see a whole lot of members, other than Mike, Peter, and a few others. There is simply nothing carved in stone that season two violates. I don't agree that it was a retcon at all. I do agree that they created some new story line for the group in season 2, but not that they scrapped everything or anything that was established in season 1.

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Guest ZeusFaber
I don't agree that Watts was not a mentor figure for Frank in season one and that this was something invented in season two.

There was no sense in S1 that Watts was acting as a mentor to Frank. No implication of it whatsoever. If anything, Frank took the lead in their investigations together. I can see where you're coming from in that there was nothing carved in stone in giant letters to outrightly state that Peter was NOT his mentor, but that's not something that happens in daily life. Nobody goes around stating what they're not, making a list of everything they're not to be categorised as. We have to take it from the tone and their behaviour, which, regardless of your personal views, is clearly quite different between Seasons 1 and 2.

That doesn't mean that Frank was automatically a group member. We don't see a lot of defining of the group in S1, and we don't see a whole lot of members, other than Mike, Peter, and a few others. There is simply nothing carved in stone that season two violates.

Same point as above really. Frank is never even hinted to be a candidate trying to prove his worth for membership in S1, nor was that ever the intension. Again, I take your point that strictly speaking there is no legal document to make the changes in S2 contradictions, but they are retcons in the full sense of the term retroactive continuity -- defining that as something which implies it was always the case from the beginning, when it quite clearly was not.

As I said before, M&W were free to do this if they chose, and some fans liked it and some fans didn't. Absolutely fine, no problems there, and that isn't the issue. But these things clearly weren't part of the show from the beginning, hence the term retroactive continuity.

I'd like to also take this opportunity to level accusations of "misrepresenting facts" here. No one has done that in this thread, from any perspective. I understand that it can be frustrating to interact with people who don't share one's personal viewpoint, but it is not unreasonable to point out that ranks and hierarchies were only introduced in S2 (i.e. candidates, patrons, elders, etc.), which is all Moriarty did.

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Bliss, you are taking this personal. I rest my case and do no want to discuss it further. I made my point.
Hey my friends..(each and every one of you)...disagreement is one thing, but this thread is certainly going in a direction that will be of no use to any of us. Perhaps we should chill a bit, and give it a rest...

a concerned 4th Horseman

"And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. Hades followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him." REV 6:8

fourthhorsemananimatedsigna3rr.gif

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