Question about S1 in general

[Guest Laurent.]

If Frank was a full member of the Group in season one he would have been made aware of their secret agenda and beliefs. The fact remains that the group presented in the first season is different from the cult-like organization of season two. Yet I prefer to bridge the gap between seasons; in the sense that, in my mind, it was the same cult-like group for all three seasons, but most of it was just hidden for the first season. Now, like I said, Frank would have been aware of the Group's agenda back in season one if he really was a full member.

Now I know that some of you will argue that their wasn't any secrets to be aware of in the first season as the group wasn't really the same entity as it was in season two. This is, in my mind, a complete other question about MM's continuity.

[Guest ZeusFaber]

There was misrepresentation of facts here. The claim is that Frank is a group member in season 1, and then suddenly not a group member in season two and being considered as a member.

That's not a misrepresentation of facts, it's a legitimate perspective.

Just because they didn't discuss Frank being a candidate and not a member in season one, doesn't mean they couldn't use that as a story line in season two.

As I tried to explain earlier, that's the very definition of a retcon. There is a difference between a contradiction and a piece of retroactive continuity. This point about Frank was not there from the beginning, it was imposed on it retroactively, hence the term. Don't mistake this for a value judgement. Like I've tried to stress repeatedly to avoid this very confrontation (didn't work), some people see that as a positive and others don't. That's not the issue.

This thread was turned into another anti Morgan and Wong thread by yourself and one other poster

I presume you're referring to me there, in which case I'd ask you to be a bit more open. How you can say that this thread was "turned into" a Morgan & Wong thread is baffling to me, since the very essence of it asks a quite blatant question about the differences between Morgan & Wong's Millennium and Chris Carter's Millennium. Nobody threw this down a tangent, the topic was there from the start. Maybe it's what laren pointed out about the word "retcon" having negative connotations, but I do find it odd that simply answering a question that things were changed in S2 is suddenly construed as negative and "bashing".

The fact is that these season two bashers you speak of, make it a point to break into innocent posts and transform them into an admitted platform for their own crusades.

"Break into innocent posts"? What on Earth?

A question was asked, I gave an answer. Maybe it's not the answer you subscribe to, but that doesn't make it illegitimate or not to be spoken. It's not hijacking and taking it off topic either. There is an issue introduced by the topic-starter, and that issue is then discussed. You make out that some people's only activity on the board is to go fishing around for ways to divert a topic onto anti-S2 ground, but when a point is raised which clearly and unavoidably touches on this issue, it's only right that multiple voices are heard. No one should be made to feel villainous for that.

[Guest Jim McLean]

As I tried to explain earlier, that's the very definition of a retcon. There is a difference between a contradiction and a piece of retroactive continuity. This point about Frank was not there from the beginning, it was imposed on it retroactively, hence the term. Don't mistake this for a value judgement. Like I've tried to stress repeatedly to avoid this very confrontation (didn't work), some people see that as a positive and others don't. That's not the issue.

Just to try and break the ill winds a little, and diverge a little from the contextual topic, this is what I dislike about "retcon", like so many pop culture statements, it takes a basic principle and broadly applies it, often in a derogatory or negative manner. After all, virtually all television fiction is retcon. Series Bibles, compared to the wealth of detail that will pop up in a full season, are short, and retrospectively never entirely accurate to what is produced. Most shows adapt and change as they go, the most obvious example is the transition from pilot to series in most titles.

"Retcon" only ever applies to obvious changes, and ignores the frequent fact that all serials are build on change - or retcon, - particularly TV given their fast paced schedule. The line for "retcon" derives from "problems" rather than the nature of retroactive continuity, which is the very building blocks of most shows. Simply put, more often the case is changes from the shows initial bible or intent are generally considered evolution, unless its a more contentious scenario, to which it suddenly becomes "retcon".

Retcon is dirty fan word, its too simplistic and often (but not always!) used erroneously or unfairly. I don't use this point to deride Zeus' valid statements, just to continue my quest to remove the word "retcon" from the fan lexicon!

The bottomline is that there is enough space for this "evolution/retcon" to work, which is why I think it was applied; the nature of the Group is secret and as such, from an outsider (us) or peripheral consultant (Frank), hidden. It's all about perspective - and I think that's why M&W felt they could make such changes without actually changing anything. Season two is more a change of perspective, rather than a change in events.

Edited January 28, 2008 by Jim McLean

[hippyroo]

Yeah, we try to make too much of what a bunch of people threw together each week when producing a TV show. We give too much credit to the idea that the overarching theme and character development was thought out from the start. For insatance, what happened to Jordan's dog???????????????????????

I think the creator of Carnivale was real honest when asked about the possibility of doing a mini series to finish up the shortened series. The reporter asked about what would happen to certain characters and unresolved issues; he responded something along the lines of he had no idea, because it would be about a room of writers discussing what they wanted to do next. It would be different than if they had continued the series to season three, so he couldn't really say what it would be.

I think this applies to each season of MLLM too. The politics and circumstances created different types of shows.

[ethsnafu]

Well what an astonishing state of affairs!

Lord knows what massofspikes must think when reading this copy and paste assassination of each other. Have we truly reached the stage when congenial, mature discussion is beyond us?

There are many salient, relevant posts expressed here, some wonderfully but there is an all pervasive tone of ego ruining a valid and cogent discussion and more importantly I ask you to consider this...

When a moderator, Erin, ask that we refrain from some of the more argumentive elements of this thread then we are surely duty bound to honour that request? Though this board exemplifies the notion of freedom of expression it does so with an inarguable sense of respect. If one of us trusted to maintain the status quo asks us to enjoy a hiatus and afford each other consideration there is nothing more regretful than seeing this advice consigned to the gutter.

So...

Please allow the argumentative elements of discussion end. As I have stated I am not a moderator and have no powers to enforce my opinion but I am disgusted by the lack of friendship on display here. Please express your opinions in a way that is devoid of personal feelings.

Best wishes as ever,

Eth

[Raven Wolf]

*WARNING....NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART OR EASILY OFFENDED. I'M JUST TRYING TO END THIS NOW!*

O.K. Since NO ONE seemed to hear me when I said this nicely, I'm going to make this a little harder to ignore....

CHILL OUT! LET IT DROP! IF YOU CAN READ THIS, THIS MEANS YOU!

This is a TV show, ok? Freaking well get over it! I tried to say this in a nice way, but this has gone on long enough.

Everyone else gets to rant...well, I'm going to rant, too.

I've had a very hard week, month, year, 2 years....lifetime.... I'm sorry if I'm coming on too strongly tonight, and I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings...but ENOUGH! I'm so stressed from REAL LIFE problems that I'm having chest pains from the anxiety while walking through Wal Mart. I'm having to smoke cigarettes to keep from getting so stressed and dizzy I pass out....and people here are bickering about a television show, and trying to psychically guess what the writers intentions were! It's NUTS! Let it GO. Go spend time with your family. Have a cup of tea. Walk your dog for crying out loud....but stop this haranguing back and forth about something that does not matter.

For instance, what happened to Jordan's dog???????????????????????

Thanks for this. If this doesn't stop...and I mean NOW, I'm going to start a silly debate as to how I want to know where Ben went, and why they left him behind to die since they didn't have him with them when the virus hit that killed Catherine. I'm going to rant and rave until it's just beyond silly....because there is NO reason for their to be this much hashing back and forth over something like this. SOMEONE is going to get their feelings hurt, after someone else crosses the line and gets downright insulting. And there is just no reason for it. So....... LET IT DROP!

now.... I need another cigarette.....

[HighPlainsDrifter]

*WARNING....NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART OR EASILY OFFENDED. I'M JUST TRYING TO END THIS NOW!*

O.K. Since NO ONE seemed to hear me when I said this nicely, I'm going to make this a little harder to ignore....

CHILL OUT! LET IT DROP! IF YOU CAN READ THIS, THIS MEANS YOU!

This is a TV show, ok? Freaking well get over it! I tried to say this in a nice way, but this has gone on long enough.

Everyone else gets to rant...well, I'm going to rant, too.

I've had a very hard week, month, year, 2 years....lifetime.... I'm sorry if I'm coming on too strongly tonight, and I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings...but ENOUGH! I'm so stressed from REAL LIFE problems that I'm having chest pains from the anxiety while walking through Wal Mart. I'm having to smoke cigarettes to keep from getting so stressed and dizzy I pass out....and people here are bickering about a television show, and trying to psychically guess what the writers intentions were! It's NUTS! Let it GO. Go spend time with your family. Have a cup of tea. Walk your dog for crying out loud....but stop this haranguing back and forth about something that does not matter.

Thanks for this. If this doesn't stop...and I mean NOW, I'm going to start a silly debate as to how I want to know where Ben went, and why they left him behind to die since they didn't have him with them when the virus hit that killed Catherine. I'm going to rant and rave until it's just beyond silly....because there is NO reason for their to be this much hashing back and forth over something like this. SOMEONE is going to get their feelings hurt, after someone else crosses the line and gets downright insulting. And there is just no reason for it. So....... LET IT DROP!

now.... I need another cigarette.....

i havent been following this thread closely but i do agree with Raven.........Knock It Off!

if you want to argue, take it outside

[Guest Jim McLean]

i havent been following this thread closely but i do agree with Raven.........Knock It Off!

if you want to argue, take it outside

Maybe we could take the debate in another direction. If it was possible - by God's hand (and I suppose he'd have more important matters to consider), but if Millennium could be done again - be as a revision or simply a miracle which could allow Lance to age back 10 years, how would you approach the show in terms to the stark contrasts between ALL three seasons?

Without getting season territorial, retrospectively would you look at toning down the contrasts? If so, which way? Or would you look for finding an even balance (which would be my aim; create more blocks in season one to work with season two and perhaps tone down some of the Millennium Group tales in season two to flow more consistently with seasons one and three).

It would be nice to explore some of the possibilities on this thread of thought without nasty dispute or the personal preferences as to what Millennium "should" be.

[Raven Wolf]

Thank you, Lardeo. That's a good groundwork laid there.

[Guest massofspikes]

WHEW!!! You know, when I posted this question, my fear was that I was going to be shrugged off with the standard "It's nice to see you posting here, but this matter was conclusively settled once already in thread _____; please use the search engine from now on." I never expected it to extend to four pages and elicit such vociferous opinions and declarations. Also, I admit, it didn't take long before the S1 references found herein started whizzing over my head. (The claim in the sidebar that S1 is my "favorite season" is some kind of mistake I need to fix.) As mentioned before, I've only watched "Pilot," "Gehanna," and "Dead Letters" in their entirety, as well as a portion of "Paper Dove" (My God! Is that Kathryn and Frank in...bed(!!!) together...locked in a...gasp...post-coital embrace????? I thought they were just roommates!) This particular (seeming) discrepancy about Frank's exact involvement in The Group reminds me of a scene from an old Simpsons episode where fans were allowed to ask Lucy Lawless as "Xena" questions about the show at some kind of convention; one fan's query revealed a continuity error that could in no way be rationalized or explained away. Her answer was something to the effect of "Uh...when something like that happens, a wizard did it." "Ohhh," the crowd murmurs. Because I absolutely HATE continuity errors in television shows/movies, I'm always trying to somehow "explain" them. In the case of MillenniuM, I'd never say that "a wizard did it," but, perhaps along those lines, events transpired involving the organization of The Group, the motives of The Group, etc, that we, as viewers, were simply not privy to. I realize...that's relatively weak as these things go, but The Group's motivations and actions--from S2 on--were so bizarre and ofttimes contradictory to everything we knew about them, I sometimes have to think, while taking in the S1 oeuvre, that something is brewing just beyond our peripheral vision. Perhaps this was intended. I see a hint of what's to come in "Dove" when Frank is sitting among the FBI agents, discussing the case involving the son of the friend of his father's, and the agents beginning prodding Frank about The Group's true purpose. Does its members really think the rise in violence, etc. (a questionable claim in itself) is somehow related to the approaching millennium? Frank can only answer, "I don't think it's the meat."

At this state in my fandom (and I'll explain more later), I'm torn between regarding these apparent retcons as either true retcons that only a wizard's actions can explain, so to speak, or if we, the fans, can reasonably fill in the gaps.

Edited January 29, 2008 by massofspikes