Did Frank really go "too far" in killing the Polaroid Stalker?

[4th Horseman]

1st things 1st... WOO-HOO! Gunslinger's back!!!

O.K. Here's my 2 cents on this topic.

#1 Yes, Frank's action was justifiable. I do not consider myself a violent person, but if someone was attacking me, or if I saw a loved one in danger, I would not hesitate. I guess it's the animal nature in me. The will to survive which has served me thus far in my life.

#2 While we all hurt for Frank when Catherine said she needed space.... I can also see this as Eth does. I've been through traumas in my life as well. Her reaction may not have been so much a regection of him, as a need to spend time alone with her child, to heal from this experience. Also, as she understood Frank, she knew this would have an affect on him as well. She even stated "I don't know if it's wrong what you did.... Because, Frank, I wanted him dead."

#3 Backing off from the situation to take a bird's eye view, it seems to me, that, when Frank drove off himself, he was agreeing with her that they needed time....and this is not ABOUT whether it was right or wrong to have done what he did. It was all about how HE felt about it. I think this was part of Frank's journey. The lesson he was here to learn. His test of the soul. Remember that the Siren asked him.... "So, was it good when you killed that man who took your wife, Frank, or was it evil?" and, in Luminary, the meeting that was set with group members. It was all about testing how HE felt. What HE believed was right...for HIM in his own life. That is what this trial of the separation from Catherine means to me. He is struggling with his own beliefs about good and evil.....since there is no black or white....Only a LOT of gray.....

Gunslinger....dammit its good to have you back....i know i have missed you, and i am glad our conversation today brought you here. Thanks for once again giving us that absolutely stellar insight. Perhaps with your input we see how truely impossible the situation can be from the very beginning, a sojurn from the fork in the road which leads to a dead end in both directions...again, your re-appearance is like that first scent of spring in the air...WELCOME HOME MY GOOD FRIEND...and lets make plans on getting together when i visit my parents over Easter..that bar-b-que sounds delightful...

Mark (4th Horseman)

[Viivi]

It's so great to see you again, Gunslinger, welcome back! I actually had to look thrice to be sure that it really was you. Great post, btw.

When it comes to the topic in question: I understand Catherine's reaction to a degree. I don't think she was quite herself; remember how upset and exhausted she looked sitting in the police car after the incident? Still, actually getting separated instead of, say, a couple of days time to calm down by herself and get her thoughts clear seemed a bit of an exaggerated reaction.

But if we try to look at this matter from a showmakers' point of view: wasn't the separation a brilliant idea to make us viewers sit tight on an emotional roller coaster watching the course of the abduction, Frank saving Catherine, finally their getting back home only to get far from each other again?

Edited January 30, 2008 by dontbesodark

[ethsnafu]

Firstly, a great and sentimental welcome home Gunslinger. We have kept the home-fires burning...

Secondly, a great many thanks for sharing your personal experience of the situation. I come from a nation where our Police Force do not carry guns as matter of fact though recent events have given many 'bullets' to those from the pro's and con's camps. Not only have I no primary experience with which to measure Frank's actions but no wider social experience with which to reconcile it. It is an honour to hear from someone involved in the work you do and your words will always inform my appreciation of this topic from now on.

Best wishes,

Eth

[4th Horseman]

It's so great to see you again, Gunslinger, welcome back! I actually had to look thrice to be sure that it really was you. Great post, btw.

When it comes to the topic in question: I understand Catherine's reaction to a degree. I don't think she was quite herself; remember how upset and exhausted she looked sitting in the police car after the incident? Still, actually getting separated instead of, say, a couple of days time to calm down by herself and get her thoughts clear seemed a bit of an exaggerated reaction.

But if we try to look at this matter from a showmakers' point of view: wasn't the separation a brilliant idea to make us viewers sit tight on an emotional roller coaster watching the course of the abduction, Frank saving Catherine, finally their getting back home only to get far from each other again?

DBSD - long time my friend...good post, good analysis concerning the seperation. As usual, even Catherine's actions are open for scrutiny. As Gunslinger indicates, the wives of those officers who have been involved in such incidents seem to draw closer to their husbands, and to be honest, and maybe Gunslinger can back me up on this, but I would hedge bets that the stress of being the wife of a policeman who is exposed on a daily basis to these extreme possibilites are under far more stress than Catherine would be, given that Franks position now is one of consulting and not of confronting. The confidence that Catherine had in regards to Frank coming home for dinner was vastly more certain than that of the wife of a day to day policeman.

DBSD - by the way, can you tell me from where your avatar came from?? i feel very stupid, and it looks familiar, but i cant place it...

4th Horseman

[Viivi]

Thank you for your kind words, 4th, much appreciated.

My avatar is the hallway of the notorious Black Lodge from Twin Peaks.

[Guest massofspikes]

But if we try to look at this matter from a showmakers' point of view: wasn't the separation a brilliant idea to make us viewers sit tight on an emotional roller coaster watching the course of the abduction, Frank saving Catherine, finally their getting back home only to get far from each other again?

The whole point of the Frank/Stalker confrontation was to provoke in Frank an emotion we as viewers felt he never had in him: a certain viciousness, if you will, that would disjoin his connection with Catherine. In this sense, I feel like the scene failed for the reasons I addressed in the OP--I'm sure he was feeling anger as he stabbed away, but who wouldn't have been? And I'm sure it was, in part, the sudden coalescing of that rage that produced the adrenaline needed to overpower a man decades his junior. A scenario I believe that would have better realized the intended outcome, and done so in a more troubling and thus dramatic fashion--one that would have thrown into some real disarray both Catherine and the audience's opinion of Frank and revealed the slowly depleting ability of his to compartmentalize his heretofore hidden ability to commit violence like any of the other monsters he'd squared off against in the past--would have featured him killing a surrendering (or injured beyond the point of his presenting an imminent threat) Poloroid Stalker.

[Libby]

I just want to make mention of one little, tiny bit of the pilot episode that has always stayed in my mind. I'm not really throwing it into the discussion here because I don't really have time at the moment to get to grips with the very excellent discussions in this thread. It's just always bugged me.

There's the scene where Frank gets a phone call. Catherine is standing in the hallway standing behind Frank and listening to what he's saying and it's just the look she has on her face. She's very downcast, looking at the floor, but when Frank ends the call and turns to her, she immediately brightens up a bit. I've always had the feeling that with Frank's previous breakdown she was being very hopeful that the move to Seattle, even including Frank's work with the MM group, would make things different, but realising with that phone call (and without knowing, as was also the case for Frank, that the polaroids would keep coming) that maybe they haven't escaped to a better life after all.

If that scene, as played out, was to give us the clue that maybe things were not to work out for the best, it was very good foreshadowing. On the other hand, it spoke to me of how difficult it must be to be married to someone whose work is so all-consuming that it threatens the very existence of the family. However, it does help me to understand that for Catherine maybe she just reached the end of the road, or maybe a crossroads, following the violence provoked by the Polaroid Stalker.

I still don't like the idea of Catherine abandoning Frank, it still feels to me like making a drama out of a crisis, but sometimes that's the way it goes, both in real life and in TV.

Anyway, I've intruded on this thread just to point out that tiny bit in the pilot that spoke volumes to me.

OK, that's it. You can carry on with your excellent discussions now.

[4th Horseman]

I just want to make mention of one little, tiny bit of the pilot episode that has always stayed in my mind. I'm not really throwing it into the discussion here because I don't really have time at the moment to get to grips with the very excellent discussions in this thread. It's just always bugged me.

There's the scene where Frank gets a phone call. Catherine is standing in the hallway standing behind Frank and listening to what he's saying and it's just the look she has on her face. She's very downcast, looking at the floor, but when Frank ends the call and turns to her, she immediately brightens up a bit. I've always had the feeling that with Frank's previous breakdown she was being very hopeful that the move to Seattle, even including Frank's work with the MM group, would make things different, but realising with that phone call (and without knowing, as was also the case for Frank, that the polaroids would keep coming) that maybe they haven't escaped to a better life after all.

If that scene, as played out, was to give us the clue that maybe things were not to work out for the best, it was very good foreshadowing. On the other hand, it spoke to me of how difficult it must be to be married to someone whose work is so all-consuming that it threatens the very existence of the family. However, it does help me to understand that for Catherine maybe she just reached the end of the road, or maybe a crossroads, following the violence provoked by the Polaroid Stalker.

I still don't like the idea of Catherine abandoning Frank, it still feels to me like making a drama out of a crisis, but sometimes that's the way it goes, both in real life and in TV.

Anyway, I've intruded on this thread just to point out that tiny bit in the pilot that spoke volumes to me.

OK, that's it. You can carry on with your excellent discussions now.

Libby...good post...in reading it, i was particularily drawn to your line "following the violence provoked by the PM"...this is the very core of this wonderful thread. Frank REACTING to violence perpertrated upon him by an evil person. Again, when Catherine married Frank, and the timelink really does not matter here, it was'nt as if Frank was a used car salesman who woke up one morning and said "I think i will go to work for the FBI and contract for the MillenniuM Group"...she was fully aware of the dangers and perils, and obviously her love for Frank outweighed her perceived concerns about what his position was. Thats why to me, its perplexing (even with an understanding of post traumatic stress disorder) why she would just pack and leave...anyway, onwards and forwards..

4th Horseman..

[ethsnafu]

Enjoyable stuff Libby (are you prepared for the big freeze?)

You added another dimension to the topic and with differing views it seems one that engenders a very unique response in people and they are always the most enjoyable to read. I have had my view tempered a little and it's nice to have others feed and refine your view of things. My proposition for PTSD is on shakey ground anyway, my medical specialism is organic, biological medicine so my understanding is somewhat limited though enough to get me through my exams lol.

A very interesting topic all round.

Eth x

[Guest massofspikes]

Another thing about the episode in question.

Is this a flub? Catherine, stowed in the mesh undercarriage beneath the Stalker's car, with her face pinned downward toward the street, sees broken yellow stripes whizzing past her vision. How would this be possible unless the Stalker were driving in the middle of a two-lane, two-way road?