Could someone explain to me the connection between...

[ethsnafu]

Verbose AND pedantic! "Anything that is written to please the author is worthless." Blaise Pascal

Hi all,

Thanks for the kind words though may I nominate the mighty 4th for the most expansive vocabulary on display, the post above had me flicking through my Harper Collins in desperation

I'm always constantly amazed by guys and gals such as Sadeyes and Don'tbesodark who have such a naturalistic command of English you would never know it was not their first language. We English are terribly idle with learning languages and take it for granted, sadly, that so many people can converse so fluently in English.

Best wishes to all

Eth

[hippyroo]

I should have added : to my last post - it was supposed to be in jest. On a more serious note:

"...here is the real value of teaching everybody, everybody, to write clear, coherent, and more or less conventional prose: The words we write demand far more attention than those we speak. The habit of writing exposes us to that demand, and skill in writing makes us able to pay logical and thoughtful attention. Having done that, we can come to understand what before we could only recite. We may find it bunk or wisdom, but, while we had better reject the bunk, we can accept the wisdom as truly our own rather than some random suggestion of popular belief. If we have neither the habit nor the skill of writing, however, we have to guess which is the bunk and which the wisdom, and we will almost invariably guess according to something we feel, not according to something to which we have given thoughtful attention." Richard Mitchell

Words are what we use to have clear thought, and to make sense of where we find ourselves.

[Guest SouthernCelt]

Spoken like a true rebel!!!!!...is it true that William Tecumseh Sherman is still hated to this day in the south, particularily Atlanta???

Over the South, yes, I'd say he's thought badly of and for some it probably borders on hate. Since Atlanta is now a stronghold of Yankee transplants, I doubt that many people even know who Sherman was in terms of the history of the area.

Since you opened this subject, I'll hasten to explain why Sherman is so despised. His was the concept of "total war" in which strategic success was to be achieved by waging war on the entire population, not just the opposing military forces. In implementing this he turned his "bummers" (the nickname for his troops) loose on the population, particularly in Georgia, once Atlanta had been secured under Federal control and could serve as a base of operation for forays into the countryside. This began the infamous "March to the Sea" in which Sherman cut and burned a swath from Atlanta to Savannah, leaving no homes, crops, livestock, etc. alive or standing. The local civilians had no choice but to become refugees and seek asylum in a safer part of the state.

A lot of Federal POWs, though, were displeased with Sherman after Georgia was secured for the Union because he could have turned his attention to freeing the many men being held at (prison) Camp Sumter at Andersonville, GA, but he didn't want to saddle his forces with the chore of dealing with men in poor health or to try to find transport means to get them back North so he ignored them. Although the Northern POV then and now will not admit to this, the reason the Andersonville POWs were nearly starved was that Sherman successfully destroyed a variety of food crops and stores that could have at least provided a subsistence diet to the prisoners plus he ignored the prison's operation as mentioned. Following the war, the winning side (who had prisons that were just as bad as Andersonville) needed someone to blame for what became an example of man's inhumanity in war so they tried, convicted and hanged Henry Wirz (the last commander of Camp Sumter at Andersonville) for war crimes. No mention was ever made of Sherman's failure to liberate the Federal POWs when the opportunity presented itself.

Frankly one of my main reasons for personally disliking the man and his character is because of actions well after the war. He was one of the men instrumental in recommending and implementing the relocation or destruction of the Western Indian Tribes. Another celebrated Union officer, Philip Kearney, continued to be involved at a high level in military/political circles and is the one credited for saying something that came later to be paraphrased as "the only good Indian is a dead Indian". Although those aren't the specific words he uttered, the thought was much the same in that he, Sherman, Grant (as President) and others implemented a program of treaties to confine Native Americans to specific areas which later became better defined as "reservations" and, if the NAs didn't agree to the treaty and abide by it, the military considered them to be at war and sought to annihilate them or drive them out of the US altogether (e.g. the Nez Perce' late in the nineteenth century). Most military raids on villages were successful, Custer's 7th Cavalry at Little Bighorn being the notable failure, and were usually massacres in the sense that everyone in the villages that could not escape the raiders was killed whether they resisted the raiders or not.

Heck, I could go on for pages, but I'll stop with this last thought -- many people all over the US like to condemn certain nineteenth century Southerners for having a view on life that is not acceptable today so if they're that intent on disliking/hating, there are a lot more non-Southerners that should add to their list.

[4th Horseman]

Over the South, yes, I'd say he's thought badly of and for some it probably borders on hate. Since Atlanta is now a stronghold of Yankee transplants, I doubt that many people even know who Sherman was in terms of the history of the area.

Since you opened this subject, I'll hasten to explain why Sherman is so despised. His was the concept of "total war" in which strategic success was to be achieved by waging war on the entire population, not just the opposing military forces. In implementing this he turned his "bummers" (the nickname for his troops) loose on the population, particularly in Georgia, once Atlanta had been secured under Federal control and could serve as a base of operation for forays into the countryside. This began the infamous "March to the Sea" in which Sherman cut and burned a swath from Atlanta to Savannah, leaving no homes, crops, livestock, etc. alive or standing. The local civilians had no choice but to become refugees and seek asylum in a safer part of the state.

A lot of Federal POWs, though, were displeased with Sherman after Georgia was secured for the Union because he could have turned his attention to freeing the many men being held at (prison) Camp Sumter at Andersonville, GA, but he didn't want to saddle his forces with the chore of dealing with men in poor health or to try to find transport means to get them back North so he ignored them. Although the Northern POV then and now will not admit to this, the reason the Andersonville POWs were nearly starved was that Sherman successfully destroyed a variety of food crops and stores that could have at least provided a subsistence diet to the prisoners plus he ignored the prison's operation as mentioned. Following the war, the winning side (who had prisons that were just as bad as Andersonville) needed someone to blame for what became an example of man's inhumanity in war so they tried, convicted and hanged Henry Wirz (the last commander of Camp Sumter at Andersonville) for war crimes. No mention was ever made of Sherman's failure to liberate the Federal POWs when the opportunity presented itself.

Frankly one of my main reasons for personally disliking the man and his character is because of actions well after the war. He was one of the men instrumental in recommending and implementing the relocation or destruction of the Western Indian Tribes. Another celebrated Union officer, Philip Kearney, continued to be involved at a high level in military/political circles and is the one credited for saying something that came later to be paraphrased as "the only good Indian is a dead Indian". Although those aren't the specific words he uttered, the thought was much the same in that he, Sherman, Grant (as President) and others implemented a program of treaties to confine Native Americans to specific areas which later became better defined as "reservations" and, if the NAs didn't agree to the treaty and abide by it, the military considered them to be at war and sought to annihilate them or drive them out of the US altogether (e.g. the Nez Perce' late in the nineteenth century). Most military raids on villages were successful, Custer's 7th Cavalry at Little Bighorn being the notable failure, and were usually massacres in the sense that everyone in the villages that could not escape the raiders was killed whether they resisted the raiders or not.

Heck, I could go on for pages, but I'll stop with this last thought -- many people all over the US like to condemn certain nineteenth century Southerners for having a view on life that is not acceptable today so if they're that intent on disliking/hating, there are a lot more non-Southerners that should add to their list.

Wayne..before anything, you know that my little snippet was in jest. One of the things i have thought of that i would love to do is come visit you and just sit on your front porch and talk about history, eat a little sloosh...drink a little "knock 'em stiff" or "Oh Be Joyful", maybe listen to a little Lorena..

you are spot on about Sherman...wage war on the civilians, burn, destroy ANTYHING that could be considered enemy stock, and dont forget the famous "Sherman neckties" which seriously hindered the South's access to necessary material, and last but not least, ignoring his men's pilfering, wanton destruction of what was left. I directed my question to you, because you are the ONLY one here who could give me the information i was looking for, and as you have been such a good friend for so long, i trusted you with an unbiased response. My dream is to one day visit the more important sites. So far, i have only been to Pea Ridge, a battlefield just outside of Rogers, Arkansas which had very little importance..

I brought up Sherman because he is one of the most instrumental, for good or bad, influences on our Nation at this particular point in time..I have studied for years and read as much as i can on this conflict and i would have to admit to a bit of fanaticism about the Civil War..

To most people, the photos, stories, would only serve to pass time as they wait to watch "Survivor" or "Dancing with the Stars". But for me, they bring a melancholy, haunting realism of how horrible places like Cold Harbor (7,000 dead in 20 minutes), Antietam (23,000 casualties in a single day), Fredricksburg, Gettysburg must have been. Soldiers stitching their names on the backs of their uniforms the night before battle so that their corpse could be identified (Cold Harbor) to some of the most poignant letters ever written to wives, families, from soldiers who where then killed in a conflict that started over states rights and ended as a fight of freedom for everyone, whites and blacks.

A very sad footnote is that 2/3 of the deaths that occurred during this time were due to infection and disease. Only 1 out of every 3 soldiers died as a direct result of wounds sustained on the battlefield. The weaponry was far too advanced for its time and the strategy of lining your men up and walking directly into entrenched enemy lines also contributed to the unbelieveably high numbers..

I as well could go on for hours, in particular about Nathan Bedford Forrest, however, if you dont mind, i would love to PM about such issues...

take care my Southern friend...(i am from Oklahoma, so you can call me your okie friend)...

always, and in the utmost respect,

4th Horseman..

[Guest SouthernCelt]

Wayne..before anything, you know that my little snippet was in jest. One of the things i have thought of that i would love to do is come visit you and just sit on your front porch and talk about history, eat a little sloosh...drink a little "knock 'em stiff" or "Oh Be Joyful", maybe listen to a little Lorena..

you are spot on about Sherman...wage war on the civilians, burn, destroy ANTYHING that could be considered enemy stock, and dont forget the famous "Sherman neckties" which seriously hindered the South's access to necessary material, and last but not least, ignoring his men's pilfering, wanton destruction of what was left. I directed my question to you, because you are the ONLY one here who could give me the information i was looking for, and as you have been such a good friend for so long, i trusted you with an unbiased response. My dream is to one day visit the more important sites. So far, i have only been to Pea Ridge, a battlefield just outside of Rogers, Arkansas which had very little importance..

I brought up Sherman because he is one of the most instrumental, for good or bad, influences on our Nation at this particular point in time..I have studied for years and read as much as i can on this conflict and i would have to admit to a bit of fanaticism about the Civil War..

To most people, the photos, stories, would only serve to pass time as they wait to watch "Survivor" or "Dancing with the Stars". But for me, they bring a melancholy, haunting realism of how horrible places like Cold Harbor (7,000 dead in 20 minutes), Antietam (23,000 casualties in a single day), Fredricksburg, Gettysburg must have been. Soldiers stitching their names on the backs of their uniforms the night before battle so that their corpse could be identified (Cold Harbor) to some of the most poignant letters ever written to wives, families, from soldiers who where then killed in a conflict that started over states rights and ended as a fight of freedom for everyone, whites and blacks.

A very sad footnote is that 2/3 of the deaths that occurred during this time were due to infection and disease. Only 1 out of every 3 soldiers died as a direct result of wounds sustained on the battlefield. The weaponry was far too advanced for its time and the strategy of lining your men up and walking directly into entrenched enemy lines also contributed to the unbelieveably high numbers..

I as well could go on for hours, in particular about Nathan Bedford Forrest, however, if you dont mind, i would love to PM about such issues...

take care my Southern friend...(i am from Oklahoma, so you can call me your okie friend)...

always, and in the utmost respect,

4th Horseman..

Just give me a call if you're ever over my way so I'll know you're coming and can refresh my memory of things to a sufficient level to speak on this nearly overwhelmingly detailed period.

While the battles you mention as dramatic examples of war were truly horrible, they are by no means the only such events of that significance. Many times in the writings of history, whether by "Yankees" or "Rebels" the events of the war in the Virginia-area theater (where Lee was) gets much more attention. The war in the mid- and deep-South as well as the "transMississippi" area (west of the river) had its notable events as well. My personal focus because of having ancestors involved is on the battle at Franklin, TN on Nov. 30, 1864; it has been called the Gettysburg of the west because of battle similarities to the third day of Gettysburg. Of course, those battles that were fought within just a few miles of where I live are also personal study "favorites".

As to Pea Ridge (or Elkhorn Tavern as it is sometimes called) there was one event that made it notable and different from all other battles of that size -- the Southern-sympathetic Cherokees and other tribes from the Indian territory in OK had been organized into a fighting unit and fought not in the manner of the other Confederate units but in the manner that Native Americans had developed in their own tribal wars in ages past. The officers on both sides found their tactics and methods of killing abhorrent and could not abide the taking of scalps as many of them had done so the white officer that had organized the unit was relieved of command and the Native Americans were either broken into smaller groups and integrated into other primarily white units or were sent back west where their methods wouldn't receive such notariety to fight as "rangers" using guerilla tactics. The officer who was relieved of duty resigned and became a major player in the Knights of the Golden Circle along with a number of other Freemasons...but that's another whole story unto itself.