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wow.....i wound up the little MillenniuM Monster Thread and now lets watch it go. Like my buddy 4thHorseman said....lets keep this civil and lets respect each others thoughts and beliefs.

Let me try and lure things back, how did Jordan hurt herself? and to spread the icing on the cake is Danielle a small gust of wind before it becomes a Hurricane?

My viewpoint tends to lean towards the notion of she has the potential to do greater harm in the world. She is a monster in the making. Her mom and dad are not able to connect to her nor does she is able to establish a relationship. I see this in my line of work with children that has Emotional Disturbances. I keep seeing the same thing over and over again....bad parenting + no love = severe dysfunction. Alot of the students i deal with see too much. They see people shooting each other, they see a parent or uncle watch pornography right in front of them. They get abused or they have no parental control over them. These kids are in a breeding ground thats developing criminals-killers and drug sellers. Alot of the kids have already been arrested several times. This is what i see: Violence breeds violence

:clapping:

You are sooooooo right, potential is tke key word with Barbakow!

However decidedly malign she is one must remember that she has not even reached maturity. Frank states that she is in the process of becoming, that whatever he senses is yet to be made fully manifest. Considering the capability to murder is already apparent one wonders what was to 'evolve' next.

Shudder-some stuff.

Great topic by the way Joe!

Smiles,

Eth

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Instead of a "bad seed" concept, I am more interested in what causes some to give into their desires or "biochemical" reactions to stimulus and others to not give in? I see children with very similar circumstances and most of them do not become monsters, yet few do. What is the difference? I can't say that another child heard cat bones at a certain age and resisted, but something similar happened to many that did. Having raised children, I do know that each comes with a personality at birth. Is becoming evil just in your genes? I say no. I say we all have the opportunity to choose evil

In the fantasy world of MLLM, the little girl in MONSTER has a "gift" that she is choosing to use for evil. In the end the MLLM group has taken her and , in my interpitation, is going to try to turn her talents towards their ends. Whether or not the group's ends are evil is a whole other conversation. Even in real life some of our monsters have found Jesus, right?

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i have always believed the notion of that we become evil instead of being born evil. Hipp you ask a great question, why do some children act differently regarding the same stressors. My answer is that they have the ability to handle themselves correctly because they understand. in their lives they have balance not chaos. They must live in a house that is actually a home.

do real monsters find jesus?

the answer to that.....they wont know until its time to meet their maker. The Son of Sam holds prayer services in the prison he is at but its that enough? only GOD knows

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i have always believed the notion of that we become evil instead of being born evil

Controversially there is an 'Inherent Evil' concept in some branches of psychology which asserts that we are all born with a natural predisposition to chaos and violence and it is only due to the order imposed upon us by family, peers, society and law that we do not display this natural tendency more often. As a result of this belief, adherents believe that it is necessary to apply controls on people at all times to prevent this natural tendency from coming out. As we are all born evil, education (or at least societal normalisation and assimilation) is a particular priority.

Make of that what you will but I'm firmly in the 'preposterous rubbish' camp on this one.

Smiles,

Eth

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But as it turns out monsters can come out of very loving homes and angles can come out of horrible childhoods. If every child that was molested, abused, tortured etc became a person that hurt others I would have to agree that it is conditioning, but it just isn't so. Yes, many abused kids do abuse their own kids, but not all of them. There is something else at work. I do believe all people are born with the ability to do horrible things.

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But as it turns out monsters can come out of very loving homes and angles can come out of horrible childhoods. If every child that was molested, abused, tortured etc became a person that hurt others I would have to agree that it is conditioning, but it just isn't so. Yes, many abused kids do abuse their own kids, but not all of them. There is something else at work. I do believe all people are born with the ability to do horrible things.

AWESOME POINT HIPPYROO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!At the end of the day since if we are supposed to be "intelligent sentient beings" should it not be a choice of what we do or don't do? I'm sure not all of us had ideal childhoods....I damn sure didn't, but one of the things I strive to do on a daily, hell, even an hourly basis is treat my son a helluva lot better than I was treated. I don't go out and do horrible things then try to hide behind my upbringing or blame my parents for my actions. This is an inherent problem in our society and especially in our justice system. When you take personal accountability away it leaves the door wide open for excuse after excuse after excuse. What seems very unfair in my opinion is that if someone kills someone in cold blood to steal their car, take their money, or whatever the case may be, the very first line of defense is what? That they come from a broken home, grew up in a violent home, daddy didn't love them enough, or some other vague comstruck of justification. "I was insane when I used the meat cleaver on my girl/boyfriend. It wasn't my fault, there were mitigating circumstances". There may be mitigating circumstances, and some of them may have bearing on why people do things, BUT, using your upbringing or background as justification for atrocities bestowed upon your fellow human is equivalent to a credit card with no limit and a very low interest rate. If you saw someone into little pieces in this country and drop off the parts at the local police station and turn yourself in, what are your chances of having to give your life in return?? Very slim, you are almost guranteed to have the remainder of your life bankrolled by the family of the person you killed. The death sentence is used so infrequently in this country due to the fact defense lawyers will always hammer home the fact that the killer was not loved as a child, did not realize the scope of his crime, WHATEVER, BS!! Unless you live in a cave, you know that murdering someone is not legal and you know they have families that your actions are going to affect. The difference is you just CHOOSE not to care, to satisfy your own sick demented desires and roll the dice that 10 years from now you will be sitting in your comfortable public tax funded jail cell while the person you killed is still dead and the family of the person you killed still has to wake up every morning knowing a loving soul was snuffed out. Furthermore, to be humiliated in the fact that the monster that killed your loved one will live a long life safely tucked away having only paid for his atrocity with his personal freedom. Who wins and who loses in this system? Hard for me to tell anymore. Gunslinger.

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AWESOME POINT HIPPYROO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!At the end of the day since if we are supposed to be "intelligent sentient beings" should it not be a choice of what we do or don't do? I'm sure not all of us had ideal childhoods....I damn sure didn't, but one of the things I strive to do on a daily, hell, even an hourly basis is treat my son a helluva lot better than I was treated. I don't go out and do horrible things then try to hide behind my upbringing or blame my parents for my actions. This is an inherent problem in our society and especially in our justice system. When you take personal accountability away it leaves the door wide open for excuse after excuse after excuse. What seems very unfair in my opinion is that if someone kills someone in cold blood to steal their car, take their money, or whatever the case may be, the very first line of defense is what? That they come from a broken home, grew up in a violent home, daddy didn't love them enough, or some other vague comstruck of justification. "I was insane when I used the meat cleaver on my girl/boyfriend. It wasn't my fault, there were mitigating circumstances". There may be mitigating circumstances, and some of them may have bearing on why people do things, BUT, using your upbringing or background as justification for atrocities bestowed upon your fellow human is equivalent to a credit card with no limit and a very low interest rate. If you saw someone into little pieces in this country and drop off the parts at the local police station and turn yourself in, what are your chances of having to give your life in return?? Very slim, you are almost guranteed to have the remainder of your life bankrolled by the family of the person you killed. The death sentence is used so infrequently in this country due to the fact defense lawyers will always hammer home the fact that the killer was not loved as a child, did not realize the scope of his crime, WHATEVER, BS!! Unless you live in a cave, you know that murdering someone is not legal and you know they have families that your actions are going to affect. The difference is you just CHOOSE not to care, to satisfy your own sick demented desires and roll the dice that 10 years from now you will be sitting in your comfortable public tax funded jail cell while the person you killed is still dead and the family of the person you killed still has to wake up every morning knowing a loving soul was snuffed out. Furthermore, to be humiliated in the fact that the monster that killed your loved one will live a long life safely tucked away having only paid for his atrocity with his personal freedom. Who wins and who loses in this system? Hard for me to tell anymore. Gunslinger.
Hey Gunslinger...stop posting such large responses. We wont have anything to talk about next week when we get together!!!! LOL<LOL

great points. Laran, Laredo, Eth, Joe, Wayne, and to all who have participated in this thread, i present a scenario. Say each of you are given the option of either reporting your taxes fairly and honestly, or taking deductions that you KNOW are not valid, yet you know that the chance of ever being audited are nearly slim and none. What path do you take? The honest one, or the one where you knowingly cheat or lessen the government out of your financial responsibility, with the full knowledge that your actions could result in your being audited, fined or worse, imprisoned. Why do you take that risk?

Say you are walking down the street and come across a wad of money sitting in the gutter that someone dropped. Do you pocket the money under "finders keepers, losers weepers" or do you turn it into the local PD and wait the obligatory period of time before you can rightfully claim it, knowing that the owner is most likely desperately looking for it.

More seriously, say you meet a beautiful woman at a party whom you find immediatley physically attractive. She seems to take a great deal of interest in you and you begin to think that there is a chemistry developing between the two of you, signs that seem to say you are getting "somewhere". Later in the evening, you find yourself alone with her again but this time she seems a bit colder and wants to leave. You still have that very strong "physical" attraction to her, but now you feel humiliated, rejected, shunned, angry. You now stand at a crossroads, either turn around, tuck your tail between your legs and lick your wounds, or follow her home without her knowledge, force your way in and extract from her what you think she "owes" you....

Three varying levels or degrees of "evil" from the benign to the horrific.

My question is, what is it in you Eth, Slinger, Laredo, Laran, etall, that makes you take the right path? What prevents you from taking out your feelings of anger on someone or something? Is it adherence to religious dogma? Good parenting? Well, some of us who would take the evil path came from homes and beliefs exactly the same as you (see my previous post on Dahmer). So what made the one key difference in the decision? If all else is equal, and say Eth, you take the legal, moral, ethical path, and i, raised in a similar environment, take the opposite road, then what was it that triggered the difference?

just some ramblings..

4th Horseman...

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Can i take a stab at this question 4th?

i really stand true to my other comments and beliefs. So how are we any different form serial killers when it comes to making the right or wrong answers. I really do believe it points back to the parents and household. You could have the best morally sound family or a split/dysfunctional family and still choose evil. It was believed that Dahmer had a decent family life but there where underlying things that where going on that lead to the person he became. His sexual vices werent discussed. I am not sure if his parents knew or not but his sexual issues were never dealt with. When his dad left him and mom that made things more worse for him. For Dahmer it was a progession that became worse due to events that happen to him.

We learn our morals from our parents. Empathy and Sympathy is also a learned behavior from our parents/family. I believe everything starts at the beginning when we are babies, what kind of relationship do we have with mom. Is there a closeness, does mom and dad play with me. Do they show effection towards me. Do they say i love you. I recently did a paper on this in my class regarding Mother/Child Relationships. Those early years are so critical, that it forms who we are. Like Mrs. Barbako talked about to Frank........When i look in my daughters eyes i see nothing. I guess Danielle and her mom didnt bond well.

When analyzing myself i tend to think it was my upbringing in a church and good parenting that shaped and molded me into the person i am today. I admit i have chose some crummy stuff i did in the past but i never had thoughts of murder or mayhem. Instead i got in a few fights when i was a teen, but i was protecting someone else. I guess its confession time. lol

oh and by the way........i guess i am not invited for the annual Slinger/Horseman luncheon?

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Can i take a stab at this question 4th?

i really stand true to my other comments and beliefs. So how are we any different form serial killers when it comes to making the right or wrong answers. I really do believe it points back to the parents and household. You could have the best morally sound family or a split/dysfunctional family and still choose evil. It was believed that Dahmer had a decent family life but there where underlying things that where going on that lead to the person he became. His sexual vices werent discussed. I am not sure if his parents knew or not but his sexual issues were never dealt with. When his dad left him and mom that made things more worse for him. For Dahmer it was a progession that became worse due to events that happen to him.

We learn our morals from our parents. Empathy and Sympathy is also a learned behavior from our parents/family. I believe everything starts at the beginning when we are babies, what kind of relationship do we have with mom. Is there a closeness, does mom and dad play with me. Do they show effection towards me. Do they say i love you. I recently did a paper on this in my class regarding Mother/Child Relationships. Those early years are so critical, that it forms who we are. Like Mrs. Barbako talked about to Frank........When i look in my daughters eyes i see nothing. I guess Danielle and her mom didnt bond well.

When analyzing myself i tend to think it was my upbringing in a church and good parenting that shaped and molded me into the person i am today. I admit i have chose some crummy stuff i did in the past but i never had thoughts of murder or mayhem. Instead i got in a few fights when i was a teen, but i was protecting someone else. I guess its confession time. lol

oh and by the way........i guess i am not invited for the annual Slinger/Horseman luncheon?

I was using Dahmer because although he fit the profile of a serial killer by FBI standards, the remarkable thing is he had a normal family life, two parents, felt loved, needed, etc...Ed Gein and many of the other SK's either had an overbearing mother (Gein's was based on religious fervor about sexuality, his father was very passive and whimpish) to those Sk's with no father figure at all. If you read my post, the haunting quote from Dahmers father of Jeff's unnatural attraction to the clanking of animal bones raked from under their house at age of 4 was only a precursor of things to come. You could very well make the statement that Frank's assessment of Danielle about "a pre-breeze of an impending hurricane" certainly fit this description of Dahmer as well...but you still dont answer my question. Two seperate individuals, brought up in exactly the same loving, doting, environment with both parents involved, yet one follows the path of evil. Why??? If the environment is the same, then are we talking about a chemical issue in the brain??? Eth, where are you on this???

I thought you lived too far away. We would love to have you join us. We are planning on getting together next Saturday 3/22 somewhere around Fayetteville. If you are interested, let us know and we will give you the time and date. Would love to meet you...I could bring you your Hall of Fame Shirt i have been promising you for a year now...LOL

4th Horseman

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i wouldnt rule out chemical issue but my thing is relationship more so than anything else. Lets say mom had twins but she loved one more than the other. The family is a loving nurturing stable home but the two twins are being raised the same but one of them has having a relationship problem with mom. He isnt getting enough attention and love. As he grows older the relationship is different the other child. He could very well turn into another Damien but if there is an intervention.......things could turn for the better.

i exactly know where Fayetteville is but i have a feeling my car it wouldnt be available for that trip. If we can meet halfway in Rolla,Mo or if you all want to come up here its a 5hr drive. I would show you St.Louis, get a bite to eat and then go out for some beers. If not that maybe you can patch me in via phone for a disscussion...lol

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