Monster

[4th Horseman]

i wouldnt rule out chemical issue but my thing is relationship more so than anything else. Lets say mom had twins but she loved one more than the other. The family is a loving nurturing stable home but the two twins are being raised the same but one of them has having a relationship problem with mom. He isnt getting enough attention and love. As he grows older the relationship is different the other child. He could very well turn into another Damien but if there is an intervention.......things could turn for the better.

i exactly know where Fayetteville is but i have a feeling my car it wouldnt be available for that trip. If we can meet halfway in Rolla,Mo or if you all want to come up here its a 5hr drive. I would show you St.Louis, get a bite to eat and then go out for some beers. If not that maybe you can patch me in via phone for a disscussion...lol

i was not necessarily talking about twins. There just seems to be so many mitigating factors, lack of affection, overaffection, drugs, alcohol, poronography (Ted Bundy's excuse)....here is a link to a site that i found to be invaluable in studying some of these people...let me know what you think...

https://www.crimelibrary.com/

you can put any name in the search engine and find out about Manson, Bundy, Gacy, etc...i know it sounds morbid, but the one who fascinates me the most is Ed Gein....he is the one Buffalo Bob in Silence of the Lambs was modeled after..anyway, check out the site, it offers all kinds of theories, explains the triad (animal torture, firestarting, bedwetting) and goes into the social aspects of serial killers...

4th Horseman

[HighPlainsDrifter]

i was using Twins as an example 4th

some people call me a living crime library

[4th Horseman]

i was using Twins as an example 4th

some people call me a living crime library

i understand...what i was trying to say was what makes the brother of the family "good" but the sister "evil", when all the variables are identical for both. What makes one of them resist a temptation, but makes the other "give in"... it has to be neurological or chemical or a combination of both...

4th Horseman

[ethsnafu]

I thought you might find this interesting as an adjunct to your theories, but, in cases where twins display polar behavioral differences biological influences can only be, study supported, 20% responsible. When using twins as a 'control' or 'consideration' one has to rule out parental bias, environmental and sociological differences and conceptual medicine has long ceased to consider twins as carbon copies but afford them the status of two 'individuals' who have shared the uterus during pregnancy.

Our neuropathology regulates incredibly elementary instincts which are are without philosophy, devoid of consideration. Our psyche is an abstract intellection best rationalized by psychology and whilst it would be allaying to accredit malign expressions of 'self' to aberrant or pathological modes of biology there is scant evidence to support this. Hormones, chromosomes and numerous other biochemical agents are regularly given 'tabloid' status as 'holy grails' or apologetics in giving cause and measurable reason to unfathomable human conditions but should be best regarded as regulator of blood pressure, defining our hair color and supporting homeostasis.

EDIT 18.03.08

Considering this conundrum something new occurred me. I'm sure everyone is familiar with cases where twins, for whatever reason, are separated at birth and live lives quite independent from similar sets of influences and yet have dramatically similar lifestyles. Some pursue the same types of occupation and hobbies, many marry at the same age sometimes to women of the same name and so on.

I honestly have 'NO' theories at to what's occurring here as the consideration is too vast for my meagre mind but wondered if anyone could suggest cases involving twins and criminality. Has there ever been a serial killer who was also a twin for example.....

I've thought myself silly over this one and lament my grasp of psychology isn't better equipped to understand things to be honest.

Smiles always

Eth

[hippyroo]

Personally, if it's cold blood murder or rape I don't really care why they did it. Remove them from the planet. I don't care if it's their mom's fault or not.

[Guest Laurent.]

Maybe... but still: It's better to prevent than to just heal.... I don't know if that's a proverb in English like it is in French but what I mean is that the knowledge of the "why" can help to prevent it re-happening in the future. This is pretty much the basis of what Frank Black does. Understand killers so that, in the future, you'll catch them quicker and save lives.

[tobyx]

Maybe... but still: It's better to prevent than to just heal.... I don't know if that's a proverb in English like it is in French but what I mean is that the knowledge of the "why" can help to prevent it re-happening in the future. This is pretty much the basis of what Frank Black does. Understand killers so that, in the future, you'll catch them quicker and save lives.

I think this is ultimately what Frank does. But of course again, not so black-and-white. Preventing does not only mean catching killers before they commit the act but isn't it rather a prevention and rehabilitation scenario?

The ultimate fight is to eradicate the source of evil. Not snatch and wipe it every time it dissipates.

I turned all philosophical again <.<

[4th Horseman]

I think this is ultimately what Frank does. But of course again, not so black-and-white. Preventing does not only mean catching killers before they commit the act but isn't it rather a prevention and rehabilitation scenario?

The ultimate fight is to eradicate the source of evil. Not snatch and wipe it every time it dissipates.

I turned all philosophical again <.<

you make some wonderful assessments Tobyx. Yet, with this thread i feel we are going thru the infamous Mobius Loop scenario again. Are you looking at the eradication of evil from a secular or religious point of view. I ask because the methodology of both takes diversely different paths. Physical vs spiritual, the evident vs the essence. I am all for prevention and rehab, certainly with the notion of just how corrupted our judicial system can become (O.J., etc). I dont think in any rational scenario, we can expect to capture everykiller before they commit their crimes, we can only hope to become more familiar with the signatures that trigger these individuals. Think about it, the FBI classifies a serial killer as one who commits 3 or more murders with a cooling off period of 30 days or more between killings. By the very definition of a serial killer, take a moment and consider just how difficult it is to track these individuals after a single murder, much less 3 or more..

4th Horseman..

[ethsnafu]

Personally, if it's cold blood murder or rape I don't really care why they did it. Remove them from the planet. I don't care if it's their mom's fault or not.

My first problem is that I agree with aspects of nearly every post here and accept just how personal and individual our reactions and feelings are in matters such as these. If I should differ from you in my thinking I hope you understand that no ill is meant by any contradiction I may proffer.

My second problem is that this eyes-shut-ideology is only ever tolerated in issues of law and justice. Medicine does not attempt to cure pathology ignorant of its causes, psychology does not attempt to modify human behavior without knowing why it happens, artists and musicians do not express themselves without understanding the theoretical models underpinning their disciplines and conversely law should not deal with criminality if it has no conceptual or theoretical understanding of what it is. However you feel law should be dispensed be it by rehabilitation, restriction or slaughter some facet of the criminal justice system has to give credence to emergent theories and respond to them. We used to immolate epileptics because we had neither the capability or social desire to seek a cause for the strange displays of behavior these people exhibited beyond the pages of the Bible. Once medical science began to explain their behavior it no longer seemed appropriate to cook these people alive on the grounds of demon possession. Criminal Justice and Law has to listen and respond, it cannot just dispense independently.

I must say I agree with the mighty 4th that the intention of this thread has become somewhat muddy and we have become unsure what we are discussing here, no-one more so than I . I believe we run the risk of simply replicating every thought we have recently expressed in a thread of a similar nature.

Smiles to all as always,

Eth

[tobyx]

you make some wonderful assessments Tobyx. Yet, with this thread i feel we are going thru the infamous Mobius Loop scenario again. Are you looking at the eradication of evil from a secular or religious point of view. I ask because the methodology of both takes diversely different paths. Physical vs spiritual, the evident vs the essence. I am all for prevention and rehab, certainly with the notion of just how corrupted our judicial system can become (O.J., etc). I dont think in any rational scenario, we can expect to capture everykiller before they commit their crimes, we can only hope to become more familiar with the signatures that trigger these individuals. Think about it, the FBI classifies a serial killer as one who commits 3 or more murders with a cooling off period of 30 days or more between killings. By the very definition of a serial killer, take a moment and consider just how difficult it is to track these individuals after a single murder, much less 3 or more..

You really really made me think here, sir. I myself find secularism not to be equal to atheism so the "evident vs the essence" doesn't fit perfectly. I'm not a specialist, nor am I even remotely literate with the subject, but my personal feeling says even a secularized (does this word exist?) view on the subject does not have to exclude the spiritual side of things.

That said, yes my view comes from a secular point of view. Applying religion here might be perfectly viable, but not for me as I just lack the knowledge, so only my personal opinion on the matter applies.

I perfectly agree that identifying "evil" (big word here) and preventing it from causing harm in our world is the primary feasible goal. Anything before that is just not practical enough to be the primary objective. And while I do think that rehabilitation is the way to go, I do think the way to go here is to educate and teach before things happen. Drawing the monster out of the monster is pretty hard if you ask me. Again, I'm not an expert... but who is to decide when the monster has left and vanished and disappeared? That is a huge responsibility being put on psychologists, especially considering how deceiving the human mind can be.