Why assume The Judge is a manifestation of Legion

[Guest Kinjiru]

So, I've only been a member here for a short time, but from my cruising of the forums it sounds like the consensus is that The Judge in S1 is a manifestation of Legion.

I've never really got that impression...

During S1, it seemed to me that The Judge was someone that genuinely thought he was doing good. Using evil to smite evil. Drawing distinction between facilitating Justice and pure violence. He was surely misguided, but he had no evil intent. Legion, clearly has evil intent. Or rather, Legion is evil itself.

During S2, this view became reinforced in my mind. In fact, I began to question whether The Judge was an ex-member of The Group or perhaps a failed candidate. He would most definitely fall into the Rooster faction. Again, he sees himself as facilitating the proper management of mankind toward the End.

During S3, once again, my original viewpoint was strengthend. Was the The Judge any more beyond the pale than many of the current members of The Group? I think not.

Just some food for thought...

Edited May 22, 2008 by Kinjiru

[4th Horseman]

So, I've only been a member here for a short time, but from my cruising of the forums it sounds like the consensus is that The Judge in S1 is a manifestation of Legion.

I've never really got that impression...

During S1, it seemed to me that The Judge was someone that genuinely thought he was doing good. Using evil to smite evil. Drawing distinction between facilitating Justice and pure violence. He was surely misguided, but he had no evil intent. Legion, clearly has evil intent. Or rather, Legion is evil itself.

During S2, this view became reinforced in my mind. In fact, I began to question whether The Judge was an ex-member of The Group or perhaps a failed candidate. He would most definitely fall into the Rooster faction. Again, he sees himself as facilitating the proper management of mankind toward the End.

During S3, once again, my original viewpoint was strengthend. Was the The Judge any more beyond the pale than many of the current members of The Group? I think not.

Just some food for thought...

Well, for openers, in their conversation, he clearly states to Frank, who has just asked him how he should be addressed, that his name is Legion. Secondly, he knows thing about Frank and Frank's life that the average person would not. For example, in both The Judge's character and Aleister Pepper's, they both refer to Jordan, even though Frank has:

A. never met either individual before

b. never mentioned or referred to his family in any prior conversation..

also, the attempted inclusion or "tempting" of Frank to "join" them as Frank's gift and its use would be priceless clearly shows that both The Judge and Pepper were certainly either representatives or manifestations of Legion..

4th Horseman....

[Guest Laurent.]

I don't think we would be referring to Legion as "Legion" if it wasn't for the Judge.

[The Old Man]

Yes, the Millennium fanbase took on the description/name of this group of characters based on what the Judge said they were called. Other than that, it was never mentioned onscreen again for the rest of the series.

[ethsnafu]

Yes, the Millennium fanbase took on the description/name of this group of characters based on what the Judge said they were called. Other than that, it was never mentioned onscreen again for the rest of the series.

Absolutely!

Maybe you guys could help me out. As Graham notes, aside from the Judge there is no mention of Legion for the remainder of the series. I recall reading that a mytharc was never intended, merely perceived by fans who began linking the character's together under the banner of 'Legion'. It wasn't until the third season, with Seven and One, that the writers validated what the fans had theorised as a mark of gratitude for their support.

Can anyone help me out as to where I saw this?

Eth

[Orodromeus]

FRANK: Sit down. (They both do.) What should I call you?

JUDGE: 'Judge' is fine. Or the name on the report. My name is 'Legion.'

FRANK: 'Legion?'

JUDGE: When Jesus of Nazareth expelled demons from a herd of enchanted hogs, story has it that the demons told him their name was 'Legion.' How would you like to work for me?

FRANK: Work? You mean killing.

JUDGE: Every man finds his own path to justice. You needn't commit yourself now. The offer's open. A month, a year... Many benefits. I know you're sometimes scared for your family, your wife. There's a child now too, yes?

Indeed the "offering to joing the dark side", the "temptation", is Legion's copyright modus operandi for Frank. If you can't destroy him, make him one of yours. The offer's open, and it will come back in the form of Al Pepper and Mr Crocell later one.

Absolutely!

Maybe you guys could help me out. As Graham notes, aside from the Judge there is no mention of Legion for the remainder of the series. I recall reading that a mytharc was never intended, merely perceived by fans who began linking the character's together under the banner of 'Legion'. It wasn't until the third season, with Seven and One, that the writers validated what the fans had theorised as a mark of gratitude for their support.

Can anyone help me out as to where I saw this?

Eth

That's really interesting! I don't know if it the lack of mythology was intentional or not, perhaps Carter just wanted to kick off the series before worrying about these things. Perhaps he just wanted the coherence of the show to be just thematic rather than storyline-wise. Perhaps he didn't have enough time to concentrate on MillenniuM anyway and that's why it turned out like this. s2 was definitely mythology-oriented. As for s3, are there any Johannessen/Duggan interviews of that era available at all? (I should probably inquire about this elsewhere)

[4th Horseman]

Indeed the "offering to joing the dark side", the "temptation", is Legion's copyright modus operandi for Frank. If you can't destroy him, make him one of yours. The offer's open, and it will come back in the form of Al Pepper and Mr Crocell later one.

That's really interesting! I don't know if it the lack of mythology was intentional or not, perhaps Carter just wanted to kick off the series before worrying about these things. Perhaps he just wanted the coherence of the show to be just thematic rather than storyline-wise. Perhaps he didn't have enough time to concentrate on MillenniuM anyway and that's why it turned out like this. s2 was definitely mythology-oriented. As for s3, are there any Johannessen/Duggan interviews of that era available at all? (I should probably inquire about this elsewhere)

Orodromeus..thanks for posting the actual conversation. In looking both at it and in retrospect at the episode, notice how curious his statement is that "I go by Judge,or the name on the report, but my name is Legion"...its even more slam dunk when you realize that he picked out Frank to reveal his true identity. Nowhere else, in his dealings with other people on a daily basis, nor on the police report is there even a mention of "Legion"...Yet, what surprises me even more is that Frank also seems confused, as he repeats back his name in a question form, "Legion"?...as if he has no clue what it means..perhaps as this is Frank's first encounter with Legion, and its also prior to his dealings with Lucy, the evil that would come knocking on his door was not recognized, as his future encounters would sharpen his senses and heighten his awareness..

oh and by the way, the Biblical quote The Judge uses is structurely sound, but gramatically and chronologically incorrect. Jesus did expel demons, however, they were not expelled from a herd of hogs, they were cast out of a man residing in the tombs around Geresenes, then allowed to enter a herd of pigs numbering around 2,000, which then promptly ran off the cliff as a herd and drowned..

(Mark 5:1-13)

4th Horseman

[hippyroo]

Also consider the irony of the judge being a pig farmer. When Jesus confronted the demons, called legion - for we are many, in the man, they begged to be cast into some nearby swine. Afterwards the swine swam into the sea and drowned. How perfect that the judge (legion) is now a pig farmer, and his demise is again related to pigs.

[Guest WhiteWolf]

I just re-watched this episode and think I might like to weigh in.

While I agree with the cases that are being made, I just have to stick with the idea that The Judge is not linked to Lucy Butler or that mytharc in any way.

He was, indeed, a pig farmer, and used his pigs to dispose of the bodies of his victims. But I think it is more likely that his reference to the name "Legion" is more borne out of that usage than any relationship to later events that involve Frank Black. Intelligent (and sometimes crazy) people are often prone to obscure quotations, references and scripture from various sources. In the instance of Frank's meeting with him, and the rhythm of the conversation, I would say that it was more The Judge's intention to confuse Frank, or maybe test him, or possibly just to keep him off-balance to better understand him.

How does the Judge know any of that information about Frank? Well, how does he know any of the information about any of the victims? How does he know about the recently released convict that he employs as his minion?

I'm much more confident that THE JUDGE is a stand-alone episode, although I do understand that there is a desire to see connections in places, especially for fans of this series, all of us looking for little clues and nuggets of information that could be hiding in there to give it all away. So I have no problem that everyone thinks The Judge really is "Legion," who might or might not also be Lucy Butler, but I think it's unlikely, and even if it were the case, I would prefer it not to be.

By the way, I love the episode. Tough when a series starts so strong with the first three to keep it going, but THE JUDGE holds up really well, connections or relevance to later episodes or not.

[Who Am I?]

Potential thought: Legion, in rough terms "One who is Many". Perhaps, after the Judge died, the spirit of 'Legion' was passed onto Lucy Butler or Mabius upon his death?