Why assume The Judge is a manifestation of Legion

[Guest RodimusBen]

Had the series continued under Carter, I think we would have seen far fewer supernatural elements overall, which would have given Legion focus. I tend to count Legion as any time we see Lucy Butler, or Frank has a flash of a demonic presence.

[Guest byron lomax]

After watching through the list of Legion episodes offered by ethsnafu, the ones I leave out are Gehenna, Sacrament and the Pest House - there MAY be a Legion connection in these episodes, but personally I didn't see much definite evidence that there is. Despite Lucy Butler's presence I briefly considered leaving out A Room with No View as well - it doesn't follow the previous pattern of the Legion episodes, in which Legion makes an offer to Frank, and after he refuses, it gives him a demonstration of its power. In this episode she had would have happily gone on with her business without Frank's interference - it had nothing to do with him personally (at least directly). But I think Lucy herself makes it a Legion episode.

[Guest RodimusBen]

Definitely. Lucy Butler absolutely, positively is PURE Legion, so her presence makes it a Legion episode. One thing I found interesting is how each time she appears, she is doing something completely different. A demon at play?

[Guest Jim McLean]

Definitely. Lucy Butler absolutely, positively is PURE Legion, so her presence makes it a Legion episode. One thing I found interesting is how each time she appears, she is doing something completely different. A demon at play?

To me she's always doing the same thing in a different way. She's a control node; dominating, seducing, mastering, controlling. She doesn't corrupt so far as she seduces - but the end goal is taking control of another's life. IMO.

After watching through the list of Legion episodes offered by ethsnafu, the ones I leave out are Gehenna, Sacrament and the Pest House - there MAY be a Legion connection in these episodes, but personally I didn't see much definite evidence that there is. Despite Lucy Butler's presence I briefly considered leaving out A Room with No View as well - it doesn't follow the previous pattern of the Legion episodes, in which Legion makes an offer to Frank, and after he refuses, it gives him a demonstration of its power. In this episode she had would have happily gone on with her business without Frank's interference - it had nothing to do with him personally (at least directly). But I think Lucy herself makes it a Legion episode.

I certainly agree Pest House is nothing to do with Legion. There is a far too great a stretch for it to be so, and the actual antagonist is subjectively the opposite - a man who is looking to remove evil but overcome by it. That's not Legion in my books.

However I totally disagree with you on Gehenna and Sacrament. The former is the very basis of the Legion arc, where Frank is first subjective to the notion of Evil as a pure form manipulating man. The story is about manipulation of an Evil behind the human evil that Frank normally deals with. Further more, we have the Legion devil symbolizing an evil beyond man's. Gehenna is quintessentially about Legion - it's about an evil beyond the folly of man and very much starts of the season one arc of an evil beyond that we understand.

I think one mistake fans make is over stretching the Legion arc. Season one, IMO, had a very specific arc on pure Evil (which we dub the Legion manifestations). This arc is interconnected - the question of pure Evil we see manifest in Gehenna is given definition in The Judge and then we see the Evil hone in on Frank's life - for Frank is the target of the "pure Evil" we see in The Judge, and quite arguably had its interest awakened in Gehenna. By Sacrament, we see the symbolism and relevances very much come to bare, offering portents that will be mirrored throughout the remaining "Legion" episodes of season one. Sacrament sets up much of the relevant imagery and direction of Lamentation. The father in Sacrament is Legion again - no doubt. He is the Satanic influence that has corrupted and controls the son - that's laid very clear. To tie it further into the arc, we have the visual keys - the father at the top of the stairs mimics Lucy in Lamentation. On top of that the drive of Sacrament is to set up P.P.T.D - as "Legion" closes in on Frank to offer a gambit akin to "protection money" from a mafia - a deal to keep Frank's family safe from the horrors that have befallen on it.. by the people who committed the acts.

Again, how season two looks at Legion (in a far less specific tone) is different. But season one has a clear arc as pure Evil pursues Frank and looks to manipulate him into giving himself to Legion. We see many facets of Legion (which is the relevance of the Judge's words take form over the season - we see the "pure Evil" in many guises, and with Lamentation and PPTD, we explicitly see how Legion is more than one singular manifestation as the Judge hinted. We see it as the dual Butlers, we see it in the supermarket (though this scene could be held to question as one of the forms is arguably an underling). All ties together.

So for me, season one has Gehenna, The Judge, Sacrament, Lamentation and PPTD as the Legion Arc. The only one that also deals very much with the same topic in Season One I wouldn't include is Maranatha, though in the schemes of things, being the same issue (the Devil), it is the same issue, though not written to be included in the arc we speak - IMO. Could be argued he is Legion as well by definition, but narratively I'd say it's intended to be separate.

[Guest byron lomax]

However I totally disagree with you on Gehenna and Sacrament. The former is the very basis of the Legion arc, where Frank is first subjective to the notion of Evil as a pure form manipulating man. The story is about manipulation of an Evil behind the human evil that Frank normally deals with. Further more, we have the Legion devil symbolizing an evil beyond man's. Gehenna is quintessentially about Legion - it's about an evil beyond the folly of man and very much starts of the season one arc of an evil beyond that we understand.

I think one mistake fans make is over stretching the Legion arc. Season one, IMO, had a very specific arc on pure Evil (which we dub the Legion manifestations). This arc is interconnected - the question of pure Evil we see manifest in Gehenna is given definition in The Judge and then we see the Evil hone in on Frank's life - for Frank is the target of the "pure Evil" we see in The Judge, and quite arguably had its interest awakened in Gehenna. By Sacrament, we see the symbolism and relevances very much come to bare, offering portents that will be mirrored throughout the remaining "Legion" episodes of season one. Sacrament sets up much of the relevant imagery and direction of Lamentation. The father in Sacrament is Legion again - no doubt. He is the Satanic influence that has corrupted and controls the son - that's laid very clear. To tie it further into the arc, we have the visual keys - the father at the top of the stairs mimics Lucy in Lamentation. On top of that the drive of Sacrament is to set up P.P.T.D - as "Legion" closes in on Frank to offer a gambit akin to "protection money" from a mafia - a deal to keep Frank's family safe from the horrors that have befallen on it.. by the people who committed the acts.

Thanks for your reply. The foreshadowing in "Sacrament" didn't really occur to me - I really should have picked up on the experiences in "Sacrament" being an obvious lead-in to another offer of protection for Frank and his family from Legion. This gives me much to think about.

[Guest Jim McLean]

That's what we're here to do! Make each other thing, evaluate and express opinions. Super stuff. :)

[BillQS]

I haven't yet seen the second Lucy Butler episode, but from Lamentation, I don't see Lucy being the same entity as The Judge, but I know legion means many. To me it's obvious that The Judge and Pepper are direct manifestations of the same entity. Both of them offer Frank employment for their side (although that in and of itself is not a fool-proof way, for example Aerotech offering Catherine a job to get Frank on their side in Owls/Roosters.) I'm not certain about other direct manifestations of the same entity. The Siren in Siren offers Frank an opportunity to join forces with evil, but I don't think it is the same entity as the Judge.

[Guest Jim McLean]

Before I examine the post - all in my opinion. I'm not saying anything you say is wrong, I just would like to suggest some ideas.

I haven't yet seen the second Lucy Butler episode, but from Lamentation, I don't see Lucy being the same entity as The Judge, but I know legion means many.

Given that Lucy herself is quite literally, more than one person, does that not imply Legion? Given that the Gehenna demon seems quite iconic with Legion, and how she is linked directly to that demon in Lamentation (and the "devil" controlling his son in Sacrament carries the same iconic precedent at the top of the stairs), would you not say there are some potentially valid connections there?

To me it's obvious that The Judge and Pepper are direct manifestations of the same entity. Both of them offer Frank employment for their side (although that in and of itself is not a fool-proof way, for example Aerotech offering Catherine a job to get Frank on their side in Owls/Roosters.)

I agree on The Judge and Pepper. I would say that being that Lucy is certainly "unworldly" the fact she sits firmly in that arc - could one not suggest that she is part of Legion as well? Does her actions not build on the attack on Frank's family in Sacrament, bringing Pepper the leverage for his offer to keep Frank safe? Then we have the cross imagery with Pepper in the market in PPTD.

I agree with Owls and Roosters - I don't see Odessa as having any obvious Legion links despite the enticements they offer.

I'm not certain about other direct manifestations of the same entity. The Siren in Siren offers Frank an opportunity to join forces with evil, but I don't think it is the same entity as the Judge.

These are more ambiguous. Personally, given Siren is ethereal, and she is herself a temptation, I feel it fits the Legion theme. But yes, I agree there is nothing definitive there. It could be retrospective fan analysis - THAT being said, again, the iconic Gehenna demon is very much at the heart of the visions. Could be that it carries a separate significance - or could it be Frank seeing through the life the Siren offer and what is at risk if he ignores the call of Millennium? Is Siren a temptation of Legion to stand back and let Evil take all he has?

Given Legion is simply the devil in many forms, I feel that Siren is Legion. I think the fans over personify Legion, when Legion is simply the shows toy with unnatural non-human Evil. I think the Gehenna Devil is always a good way of spotting a potential Legion episode.

IMO of course.

[BillQS]

Given that Lucy herself is quite literally, more than one person, does that not imply Legion? Given that the Gehenna demon seems quite iconic with Legion, and how she is linked directly to that demon in Lamentation (and the "devil" controlling his son in Sacrament carries the same iconic precedent at the top of the stairs), would you not say there are some potentially valid connections there?

Thanks Laredo for your post. I think we are actually in close agreement. I have no doubt that Lucy Butler is part of Legion in the sense that she is part of the demons that face Frank and must be, at least in Lamentation, a very powerful member of Legion as well. What I was wanting to do was to "tease out" which characters that form the Legion arc are related to each other- especially ones that might be manifestations of the same entity.

The Judge and Pepper seem to be the most congruent example of two manifestations of the same entity. I don't think Lucy Butler is a manifestation of the Judge because the MO is somewhat different- although she does represent one of the Judge's most important characteristics- which is personal vengeance on whom the Judge considers to be wrongdoers.

But that brings up an interesting can of worms, doesn't it? Just who is the Judge working for? It's obvious that what he does is objectively evil, but does the Judge consider it evil? He goes to great lengths to formally pronounce sentence over his victims and I get the feeling he operates out of a sense of self-righteousness in carrying (or having others) carry the sentences out. Other Legion entities get almost deliciously aroused by the evil they create. They wallow in the evil. That's certainly the case with the father in Sacrament, Lucy Butler in Lamentation, the Anti-Christ figure in Maranatha and the Siren in Siren.

Figuring out who the Judge works for would also do a lot to explain Samael's appearance killing the new manifestation of the Judge in Principalities. As has been discussed on other threads, Samael is not an angel (e.g. the good guys) in traditional occult literature. Yet he seems to absolutely be the "good guy" in Principalities. What if the Judge was a former "rogue" angel (perhaps fallen or otherwise) who set himself up as the ultimate Judge of who can live or die? That might explain why Samael used the names of archangels in his spell that held and killed the Judge as Pepper.

I think if we could get more speculation as to which figures in Legion are which, or work with which entities it might generate some interesting theories.