The subtle changing of "The Group's" nature during Season Two

[Guest charlie98210]

I think the change of the basic nature of The Group from an investigatory organization made up of ex-FBI and ex-policemen, whose purpose is to assist law enforcement agencies to a cult-like doomsday cult was one of the biggest unsung acheivement of Morgan and Wong.

It started at the beginning of Season Two, which the revelation that the Group had known the identity of the Polaroid Man all along. Unstated was the corolary idea that they might have known his identity before Frank had his nervous breakdown and had to leave the FBI.

Then Frank learns that the Group monitors the "purchase of certain books."

Whenever Frank is having time with his family, the Group calls; as would a cult trying to undermine a potential member's ties to others who are outside the Group. I also think that Lara Means was put in close proximity to Frank in the hopes that he would have an affair with her and further damage his already strained family ties. Hence the "look" that Watts gives Frank in the Fourth Horseman when Frank tells him he's been trying to get in touch with Lara and really needs to talk with her.

I think that Morgan and Wong's idea for the Group was that it was an organization working for good which seemed to have lost its way. There were still many members who were idealistic and sincere (like Peter Watts) but that the leadership which ran the Group (the ones ranked below The Old Man) no longer believed in "the fairy tales" as Peter's higher-up tells him when he wants to go search for the hand of Saint Sebastion, implying that such beliefs are okay for the lower-level members of the Millennium Group, but not for the 'thinking men' of the Group's leadership. That idea is at odds with the beliefs of The Old Man, whose position seems to have evolved into a kind of ceremonial "spiritual leader"...not the "day-to-day-running-the-organization" kind of leader.

I'll expound more on this idea later if there is interest.

Edited May 29, 2008 by charlie98210

[Guest ZeusFaber]

Or "not so subtle", as some might argue!

I'm glad you enjoyed this transition, but it wasn't for me.

[Guest SouthernCelt]

Although S2 is my favorite (due to the more significant inclusion of religious symbology and end-times philosophies as well as the more conspiratorial nature of some of the multi-episode threads), I didn't find the Group's shift to be particularly subtle either. And although Peter seemed to not have been totally "turned to the dark side", he was obviously well entrenched in the Group's philosphies as things changed and was willing to do a lot of things that he would have been averse to in S1 and early S2. "Skull and Bones" in S3 showed me that Peter was now very much into the new Group activities since he all but admitted the Group had murdered a number of individuals for a variety of reasons and that he felt the reasons were reasonable in the bigger scheme of things. I can't see Peter having taken that attitude in S1 or before "Owls" and "Roosters" in S2. Once he signed on to the philosophy that one individual was insignificant in the bigger picture and that murder for convenience sake and to protect the Group was acceptable, he crossed the line. I think he did reqret losing Frank's friendship and tried to find ways to keep their relationship alive for a possible rejuvenation. By the end of S3, Frank had become such a liability to the Group with his repeated bashing of the Group to anyone who would listen, I think Peter realized he had to choose and it would seem he came down on the side of helping Frank, though that may have made him a liability that the Group wouldn't tolerate...so who was the body in Peter's house...Peter or his would-be assassin?

[Raven Wolf]

Charlie....

I'm certainly enjoying your thoughts here! I've had similar thoughts in the past, and as I have been trying to gather creative inspiration for a fan-made movie project, reading what you'd stated here is most enjoyable and helpful. Thank you!

The idea of going after Frank by using his weakness against him (the Polaroid stalker), and later putting Lara in his path is just what I was thinking of using as part of the "background" story behind the movie.

In regards to Lara.... think about it.... She states quite clearly in "Midnight..." that "Yeah, but I didn't talk about it much till Peter Watts approached me about the Millennium group." So, how did they know? Perhaps Lara had confided in someone... a therapist perhaps? Was this how the group was finding people with these "Gifts"? It seemed to me, with what we saw of the fate of the little girl in "Monster", as well as all these little clues with Frank and Lara....as well as other clues, that the group seemed to be "gathering" or "collecting" these sorts of people!

.....Thanks for the creative inspiration!

[ethsnafu]

Hi Charlie,

Firstly allow me to afford you a proper welcome to the board and add my thanks to Erin's for sharing your thoughts and ideas with us.

I can talk 'Group' theory from now till the cosmic bubble reaches us in 2058 and though all interpretations are valid may I add some thoughts to your points with regards to 'The Hand of Saint Sebastian'? My understanding of the Elder's denunciation of Peter's philosophical quest is not based upon a disdain for the trivial preoccupations of lower ranking members but more directly related to the rising civil unrest between the Owls and Roosters. The Elder reminds Peter that regardless of his desire to find concrete truths and the evidence to support them it will do little to change the factious divide and whatever he discovers will be blanketly denounced by the Owls anyway. He asserts that when there is little time it should not be spent on quests to prove their beliefs to a rejectious audience.

The wider picture is interesting in that as the divide becomes more violent and irreconcilable this is exactly the action the Roosters take in unearthing the True Cross and attempting to provide undeniable and scientific data to support their end-time theology.

I do agree with both your own, and Erin's, interpretation of the Lara Means arc. It is clear to me that she is one more attempt by the Group to create further instability in Frank's personal life by providing the one thing he has always desired, someone with a real and empathic cognisance of the visionary experience who happens to be a rather attractive, single woman. Since there are hints in Lara's narrative that she has been a member of the Group for a considerable time and as her introduction to Frank is mere moments after his marriage breaks down this makes clear the Group's design.

I do hope you will share more with us and feel free to pick apart my interpretation if you wish.

Best wishes and Goodbye Charlie (crap pun I know),

Eth

[Guest SouthernCelt]

Best wishes and Goodbye Charlie (crap pun I know),

Eth

Oh...you can say it...just don't try to sing it!

[ethsnafu]

Oh how right you are. My singing is legendarily shite. It reduces grown men to tears and not in an emotive sense.

Now my table top and pole dancing now that's in a league of its own

Eth

[Guest charlie98210]

Although S2 is my favorite (due to the more significant inclusion of religious symbology and end-times philosophies as well as the more conspiratorial nature of some of the multi-episode threads), I didn't find the Group's shift to be particularly subtle either. And although Peter seemed to not have been totally "turned to the dark side", he was obviously well entrenched in the Group's philosphies as things changed and was willing to do a lot of things that he would have been averse to in S1 and early S2. "Skull and Bones" in S3 showed me that Peter was now very much into the new Group activities since he all but admitted the Group had murdered a number of individuals for a variety of reasons and that he felt the reasons were reasonable in the bigger scheme of things. I can't see Peter having taken that attitude in S1 or before "Owls" and "Roosters" in S2. Once he signed on to the philosophy that one individual was insignificant in the bigger picture and that murder for convenience sake and to protect the Group was acceptable, he crossed the line. I think he did reqret losing Frank's friendship and tried to find ways to keep their relationship alive for a possible rejuvenation. By the end of S3, Frank had become such a liability to the Group with his repeated bashing of the Group to anyone who would listen, I think Peter realized he had to choose and it would seem he came down on the side of helping Frank, though that may have made him a liability that the Group wouldn't tolerate...so who was the body in Peter's house...Peter or his would-be assassin?

I just thought the shift in the perception of The Group was "more subtle" than the Third Season's sudden change to viewing everything the Group had ever done or said as evil (like in the episode where one of Peter Watts' daughters was kidnapped and he condones the torture and execution tactics of the Group).

I thought Morgan and Wong were taking the path that the Group was slowly moving down the wrong road, but was still basically "good." Perhaps its leadership was becoming corrupt in their use of power and the the they were manipulating the lower-lever members of the Millennium Group. It is also my opinion that the change in Peter Watts' outlook was totally at odds with the Peter Watts of "The Fourth Horseman" and "The Time is Now." In those two episodes he was a man trying to reconcile his views of what is right with what he was discovering about the Group. In Season Three, he has totally embraced their dishonesty and morally repugnant ways.

For example, the way they eliminated Baldwin in Season Three was certainly heavey-handed. Not content with letting him be killed by the bomb, they have to have a member of the Millennium Group assassinate him in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.

Edited May 30, 2008 by charlie98210

[Guest Laurent.]

Or "not so subtle", as some might argue!

That is exactly what I was going to reply as soon as I saw the title.

[Raven Wolf]

I just thought the shift in the perception of The Group was "more subtle" than the Third Season's sudden change to viewing everything the Group had ever done or said as evil (like in the episode where one of Peter Watts' daughters was kidnapped and he condones the torture and execution tactics of the Group).

I thought Morgan and Wong were taking the path that the Group was slowly moving down the wrong road, but was still basically "good." Perhaps its leadership was becoming corrupt in their use of power and the the they were manipulating the lower-lever members of the Millennium Group. It is also my opinion that the change in Peter Watts' outlook was totally at odds with the Peter Watts of "The Fourth Horseman" and "The Time is Now." In those two episodes he was a man trying to reconcile his views of what is right with what he was discovering about the Group. In Season Three, he has totally embraced their dishonesty and morally repugnant ways.

For example, the way they eliminated Baldwin in Season Three was certainly heavey-handed. Not content with letting him be killed by the bomb, they have to have a member of the Millennium Group assassinate him in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.

This is all sort of along my line of thinking.... Charlie....

I rather saw the way M&W were going to be the same way they worked "Twin Peaks", which was, in essence, the same sort of tale..... Great hero/rescuer comes along to battle evil, at the risk of being overtaken by it. I thought they were doing the same thing with the group...that a group with the noblest of intentions was still not immune to the force of Evil in the world.

Not for everyone, I know, but then, neither are many of the great Myths from history, even though they are all there to teach us.