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Okay, I think you have a good arguement. I love it when people can support their veiws.

I beleive that the legion mythos developed as they wrote the show. I dont' think they thought of Lucy when they wrote the Judge's character, but they did develop the concept further through her and Peppers. But there is no way of knowing without talking to the writers?

"What you do when you think no one is looking is who you are."

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Guest Jim McLean
Okay, I think you have a good arguement. I love it when people can support their veiws.

I beleive that the legion mythos developed as they wrote the show. I dont' think they thought of Lucy when they wrote the Judge's character, but they did develop the concept further through her and Peppers. But there is no way of knowing without talking to the writers?

I personally think they were aware of the Judge when they wrote Butler and Pepper. In fact, Frank references The Judge when speaking to Pepper, so I don't think there is any doubt there. Where I do agree is that beyond the season one run, I don't think the Legion imagery is any more than Evil with associated images of Legion; in other words, I don't think beyond Lucy's tricks and the Legion demonic icon, that they were thinking "the Siren and the images Frank sees are the same beast as Pepper or the Judge", they are just using the season one iconic symbolism to reference a greater Evil than humanity.

It's always an interesting debate. When we look at say the Alien franchise, the writer of say, Alien Resurrection will not be in the head of the person who conceived the idea, he is merely extending it - nor is the original writer necessarily having any say in the direction Alien Resurrection takes his original concept but it still is essentially the same idea, and we accept the continuity that the Aliens in Alien Resurrection stem from Alien.

In a way, the same could be argued with Legion. In Season Three, in Seven and One we see some very Legionesque imagery and a sort of coda to the demands of the Evils that have been trying to take Frank. Given those Evils follow the same mandate throughout (Mabius manipulating the evils of the Group is the same trend as Pepper manipulating the evils of Mabius, we still have the iconic Gehenna demon symbolising the pure evil, Lucy Butler still popping up with the same trends), could we not argue that it IS the same Legion as season one, simply an evolved use of the idea? If the glove fits, does the show not wear it?

It's a fascinating issue, and I don't think there is any solid answers. I do believe in a strong story arc involving a higher evil in season one that stems from the same source, and I think the idea is extended in season two and three. Legion IMO is a name that succinctly fits. But how much Legion is really definitively tied to season one in the further seasons is very much up to the audience.

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Guest Moriarty
I personally think they were aware of the Judge when they wrote Butler and Pepper. In fact, Frank references The Judge when speaking to Pepper, so I don't think there is any doubt there. Where I do agree is that beyond the season one run, I don't think the Legion imagery is any more than Evil with associated images of Legion; in other words, I don't think beyond Lucy's tricks and the Legion demonic icon, that they were thinking "the Siren and the images Frank sees are the same beast as Pepper or the Judge", they are just using the season one iconic symbolism to reference a greater Evil than humanity.

It's always an interesting debate. When we look at say the Alien franchise, the writer of say, Alien Resurrection will not be in the head of the person who conceived the idea, he is merely extending it - nor is the original writer necessarily having any say in the direction Alien Resurrection takes his original concept but it still is essentially the same idea, and we accept the continuity that the Aliens in Alien Resurrection stem from Alien.

In a way, the same could be argued with Legion. In Season Three, in Seven and One we see some very Legionesque imagery and a sort of coda to the demands of the Evils that have been trying to take Frank. Given those Evils follow the same mandate throughout (Mabius manipulating the evils of the Group is the same trend as Pepper manipulating the evils of Mabius, we still have the iconic Gehenna demon symbolising the pure evil, Lucy Butler still popping up with the same trends), could we not argue that it IS the same Legion as season one, simply an evolved use of the idea? If the glove fits, does the show not wear it?

It's a fascinating issue, and I don't think there is any solid answers. I do believe in a strong story arc involving a higher evil in season one that stems from the same source, and I think the idea is extended in season two and three. Legion IMO is a name that succinctly fits. But how much Legion is really definitively tied to season one in the further seasons is very much up to the audience.

I absolutely agree with every point made by Jim in the above post. I also believe in the arc involving a higher evil in S1. I just want to add that I also believe that there was a strong hint in Paper Dove that Polaroid Man was also some sort of manifestation of Legion. But then Carter left his position as executive producer and the idea of a higher evil was dropped in S2. There were some hints towards this higher evil in S2 but for me it is clear that in S3, once Carter came back on the series, the idea of Legion was picked up again.

You know, it is indeed an interesting discussion. Here's another thing: regarding to me it is not a coincidence that the actor who played Ricardo Clement, the cult leader in Gehenna, is the same actor who played Mabius, the manifestation of Legion that infiltrates the group in S3. One can argue and say why Watts and Frank do not recognize him but hey, like Pepper said, he's blessed with a familiar face :-)

Take care all.

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Guest Laurent.
One can argue and say why Watts and Frank do not recognize him but hey, like Pepper said, he's blessed with a familiar face :-)

Maybe Peter Watts does. He knew there were some influences at work within the Millennium Group.

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Guest Jim McLean
Maybe Peter Watts does. He knew there were some influences at work within the Millennium Group.

I would suggest that given I don't think Peter Watts sees the Legion aspect with the definition of Frank, if you wanted to make Mabius and the Gehenna leader the same person, I would say the best way would be to suggest the Gehenna lead was working for the higher echelon of the Gehenna group. I don't think given what we see at the end of S2 and in S3 that would be a far stretch, and Watts wasn't informed until he needed to know when the Group shifted in its aftermath of S3. As for Frank, perhaps he did spot him and that the discovery came to no surprise since by S3 he's under no illusion of the potential power and grip the MG has.

While it wasn't intended, that would be a neat way as how to keep Legion running through the Group arc as well.

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Gosh I think that is what I was saying? I have no idea about the alien franshise comparrison. I'm not a S. Weaver fan.

I do love the Lucy/Peppers/Longhaired guy character. I love how Lucy uses legalize so calmly when dealing with the police/FBI/Group.

"What you do when you think no one is looking is who you are."

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Guest Jim McLean
Gosh I think that is what I was saying? I have no idea about the alien franshise comparrison. I'm not a S. Weaver fan.

I'm not a big fan either, I was just looking for a franchise comparison where I knew a later instalment was written by someone far apart from the original production.

I do love the Lucy/Peppers/Longhaired guy character. I love how Lucy uses legalize so calmly when dealing with the police/FBI/Group.

Totally. You'll note that all the "Legion" relevant characters in season one are all very deft at dealing with the law. The "pure evil" episodes always have evil fully in control where ordinary evil would not be.

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Guest spacemarine17
]

By the way, I would love to hear your ideas regarding Beware of the Dog and Legion, I know I said I don't perceive a Legion tale in the episode but it doesn't mean I don't adore hearing about such things from people who do.

Best wishes,

Eth

I recently watched Beware of the Dog again and I noticed a bunch of minor similarities between the canines here and in Antipas. (NOTE: These may be longshots) but when the dogs first attack Frank his first night in town there is a cool breeze that blows by which is exactly what happens when Frank is face to face with Lucy in Antipas (now this could just be used for dramatic effect obviously but it's a similarity!!)

Also the dogs only seemed to attack "outsiders" (that we see) from the town (i.e. elderly couple, LA guy, and above all else Frank).

(sadly) My biggest similarity is that in the beginning of the episode, Catherine and Frank have breif visions of Bletch being killed but NOT visions of Legion! (close but no cigar) Also as a minor, minor "clue" Benny barks at Frank, which is interesting because in some Legion episodes Legion some how has people close to Frank turn on him or question him (i.e. Monster, Antipas)

Sadly these were the only similarites that I caught. Honestly I've been too blown away by the season finale of LOST and have been concentrating on that for "TV Time" so I'm probably forgetting more. But in conclusion I retract my statement of the dogs being part of Legion, and now feel as if they are just an agent of evil.

-a.

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Guest Jim McLean
I recently watched Beware of the Dog again and I noticed a bunch of minor similarities between the canines here and in Antipas. (NOTE: These may be longshots) but when the dogs first attack Frank his first night in town there is a cool breeze that blows by which is exactly what happens when Frank is face to face with Lucy in Antipas (now this could just be used for dramatic effect obviously but it's a similarity!!)

Also the dogs only seemed to attack "outsiders" (that we see) from the town (i.e. elderly couple, LA guy, and above all else Frank).

(sadly) My biggest similarity is that in the beginning of the episode, Catherine and Frank have breif visions of Bletch being killed but NOT visions of Legion! (close but no cigar) Also as a minor, minor "clue" Benny barks at Frank, which is interesting because in some Legion episodes Legion some how has people close to Frank turn on him or question him (i.e. Monster, Antipas)

Sadly these were the only similarites that I caught. Honestly I've been too blown away by the season finale of LOST and have been concentrating on that for "TV Time" so I'm probably forgetting more. But in conclusion I retract my statement of the dogs being part of Legion, and now feel as if they are just an agent of evil.

-a.

In all honesty, I see Beware of the Dog as Legion based. Again, the name Legion coins a notion of Pure Evil, demons and the ilk, and I don't see Beware of the Dog as being any more than an extension of that season one notion. It is dealing with an inhuman power, with the canine connotations that evil has often wrought,

I don't think the writers thought "this evil is the Judge!" or "this evil is Pepper!", but I'd have thought that common sense would see that the Legion arc in season one which does bind Pepper, Lucy and the Judge to the same evil is the same evil as this. After all, if you are looking at absolute evil, by definition, there only can be one. If you/the writers got that gist from the season one arc, then logically, by extension, this is the same pure evil in a different form.

Whether Carter or not intended this "Legion" to extend beyond season one, doesn't matter - no more than Voyager is canon to The Original Star Trek season without Roddenberry's involvement. Season two and three took the elements of season one's "Pure Evil", carried on the same traits (Curse of Frank Black, Siren - an evil interested in Frank, with the same MO and iconography) and expanded the notion of an evil beyond man (Beware of the Dog and Room with No View shows the evil at work beyond an interest in Frank).

What season one did was set up the idea that pure evil has many forms, but is very much about temptation and control - the essense of the Biblical "Legion" as far as I'm aware. So really anything that deals with inhuman evil by extension is the same thing. All The Judge tells us is that evil has many faces, it tempts, it controls on its own terms - that is evidenced in season one (and let's not forget how Frank recognizes the offer from Pepper as the Judge's very specifically) and I think the logical progression of this makes the fan's coined "Legion" arc through the show very much a reality. If it's not human evil, a high evil, by definition its Legion.

Hippyroo: Nice for us to find a middleground for a change! :)

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