Jump to content

The Old Man - was he a bad guy?

Rate this topic


Guest Bad Boy Dazza

Recommended Posts

Bad Boy, I totally understand where you are coming from. It really is all in your "understanding." It's just like Frank and Lara's abilities, they kept striving to understand them better, know that the more they understand them, the more control they have over them. I believe "understanding" is the dividing line between "illumination and ignorance," which I also believe are terms that are better to use instead of saying "good and evil," and easier to define. Crime and acts of violence all stem from being ignorant, they lack understanding, and it doesn't matter how intelligent they are, they can still be ignorant. It takes an element of intelligence to commit some, if not most, crimes, or trespasses, but to me, that has nothing to do with understanding that their actions are wrong in the eyes of man, and The God, if you are a believer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

The episodes show The Old Man to be a good guy. He did have electricity to power some electrical equipment in that lovely shack, but I can see where things could get by him without notice. It also seemed like his monastic role may have kept him from getting caught up in the fray seen in Owls/Roosters. Would he have fallen or changed as the group did the following year? Would he have kept the group from changing if he did not die then? Just a few ideas to speculate.

With regards to the workings of the group going bad under the Old Man's watch, I would speculate that like other heads of state over time, his role may have been reduced somewhat to a ceremonial role. I can't prove this, but it seems to fit in a few ways.

It looks like Philip Baker Hall played the Elder (St Sebastian/Owls/Roosters) turned into the new old man in season 2, but that the group elder in Matryshka was played by someone else and may have just been a replacement head elder. More speculation: Maybe the Old Man position (Sorry Graham!) was further ceremonialized in season 3 taking him even further out of the picture while the group assassins and the like ran amuck. Or maybe the new Old Man brought the group down?

"The answer just leads to more questions." !

:rock2:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I wasn't espousing my own view of good and evil when I stated that in some ways it seemed The Old Man was above good and evil. I was referring to the way he lectured Frank on the importance of balance in the Beware of the Dogs episode. It was an imbalance that caused the dogs to attack, the dogs are definitely evil in the show, and the Old Man's answer is essentially that the only way to defeat evil in that instance is to cure the imbalance. That's why I see The Old Man as espousing something akin to a yin/yang Buddhist view of the good and evil question. (My own beliefs are basically traditionally Anglican and don't really apply to my discussion of Millennium.)

As for using "illuminaton and ignorance" as a better term than good and evil, I think it doesn't totally mesh with the metaphysics of Millennium. Evil is a palpable force in Millennium. It's one of the few things that carry all the way through all 3 seasons of the show. The "bad-guys" almost always know that what they are doing is evil, as a matter of fact many of them derive great joy from causing evil. I do think "illumination" does play an important part in Millennium, especially in Season 2, but I don't have the time right now to delve into how I think that applies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To me The Old Man is an example of how, if we're not careful, perspective can lead to callous detachment (I can relate). In Beware of the Dog, he defends not even informing Michael Beebe of the danger he's in, doesn't even want to give him a chance to survive, because he's not worthy. But Frank is worthy, so he elects to save him twice. Left unclear is whether Frank actually persuaded The Old Man, whether he would've saved Beebe at the end had Frank not also been at the house. It's also possible The Old Man was just playing Devil's Advocate as part of the test of Frank, though he seemed sincere to me.

So if The Old Man was sincere in anointing himself arbiter of who is and isn't worth saving, and he's taught this philosophy to other members, I can see how that might lead to what the Group does at the end of season 2. I don't think it's something The Old Man would have endorsed, but perhaps the Group took his teachings to what one might see as their logical conclusion.

https://millennium-thisiswhoweare.net/guide/episode_transcript.php?mlm_code=202

FRANK: They'll kill Michael.

THE OLD MAN: Huh. Surprised it ain't happened already.

FRANK: How can I respect that?

THE OLD MAN: Well, I can't respect him. My neighbor did nothing to help his or our situation but run away, and from crime of all things. Crime is not evil. Any of us would steal if we were hungry. And any of us might even kill if we were without hope. So, we confront evil. But there isn't much time. We can't waste time on one ignorant man.

FRANK: You could teach him.

THE OLD MAN: Hmm. Well, then I haven't taught you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Bad Boy Dazza

I am going to rock the boat and say I have a hard time buying that the old man was somehow not up to date with the Millenium group goings on. If anything he was more with it than the others. He had a deeper sense of the state of things than the others, and by that I mean the (at the time) "present" state of the balance of good and evil in the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Bad Boy Dazza

Very interesting observation.

So if The Old Man was sincere in anointing himself arbiter of who is and isn't worth saving, and he's taught this philosophy to other members, I can see how that might lead to what the Group does at the end of season 2. I don't think it's something The Old Man would have endorsed, but perhaps the Group took his teachings to what one might see as their logical conclusion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am going to rock the boat and say I have a hard time buying that the old man was somehow not up to date with the Millenium group goings on. If anything he was more with it than the others. He had a deeper sense of the state of things than the others, and by that I mean the (at the time) "present" state of the balance of good and evil in the world.

Yes. I thinks "Owls" shows his connectedness when most everyone else was disconnected, so to speak. The change in season 3 in a way takes full advantage of the lack of the Old Man, who we can assume would have had a strong influence, based on what we saw in season 2. I'm sure that if the writers wanted to, they could have written other characters differently, but since they didn't do it, we get to speculate.

:rock2:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thought to chew on:

Maybe if the Old Man was not killed in season 2, he would have had a positive effect on Peter Watts in season 3. I liked the "mixed bag" emotional approach to Peter in Collateral Damage and Matryoshka, but it would have been nice, but predictable in a way, to have him become one of the "good guys" again by the end of the season.

:rock2:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

I think at the very ultimate end of Season 3 it's revealed that Peter was definitely one of the good guys. He provides the information to save Frank and Jordan, and we see that most likely he paid for his aid to them with his life. I think one could go as far as saying that Peter's motive (not really ever fully revealed to Frank) was to protect Frank and Jordan from the ascendant dark side the Millennium Group had taken.

All that being said, I do wish we could have seen more of the "old school" partnering of Peter and Frank that made the first two seasons of the show so enjoyable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using our website you consent to our Terms of Use of service and Guidelines. These are available at all times via the menu and footer including our Privacy Policy policy.