I Am Confused Over Some Episodes

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Watched these two episodes together and noticed when Gieblhouse looked up the stairs and saw the Demon..Lucy and some guy with long hair, i looked at that scene again. Isnt that guy with long hair AL Pepper?.....if so how are him and Lucy connected? i know they are both demons but are they the same persona? but then again Pepper gets killed and Lucy shows up in Season 2 again. Can anyone explain this? In Lamentation Peter and Frank are in Wash D.C, isnt Lucy's house in that area? If so how is she able to travel back and forth from Seattle to DC so fast? Or am I confused with the timeline? She did kill Giebelhouse right? she did put the human liver in the fridge right? someone help me

[Guest Seraphim]

She didn't kill Geibelhouse, she killed Bletcher. I will have to look and see if it's the same actor portraying the long haired man and Pepper. My explnanation for the connection would be that they are both demons. One could use the Legion scenario and state that they are all seperate demons that are part of a collective. There may be no intended connectio between her male form and Pepper. I don't recall it ever being stated how she got from DC (Actually wasn't she in Virginia?) to Seattle. Though, if she is a demon, I don't think such details slow her down.

[Guest Mikal C Johnson KtCym ECA]

You have to remember that angels and demons are not limited to our 3-dimensional sub-reality. Being creatures that live and move in higher dimensions, they will be inately capable of what we would call "hyperspace" travel.

Virginia to Seattle is about a 35 second trip.

[Guest se7en]

DAMN! i thought it was a 28 second trip!

se7en

[Guest Forza]

For Beelzubub's sake, she's Satan incarnate! She hardly needs to book a flight to get from D.C. to Seattle! Examples of her powers abound throughout the series. However, a la The Devil's Advocate, she cannot circumvent mankind's Free Will.

Furthermore, the actors playing the male Lucy in the stairwell and the incomparable Al Pepper are NOT the same person, no more so than the stairwell male is the ever-tactful Selwyn Wassenaar (see Season 3's "Antipas"). On the other hand, one could view all of them as various incarnations of the Light that Deceives; that is, each of them is a different incarnation of the same satanic force or power.

Unlike the poor souls of the damned (e.g., the "serial killer of the week" like the Frenchman, Art Nesbit, etc.) who suffer enternally for their fallen ways, Lucy, Al, Selwyn, et al. genuinely enjoy their time in Hell, for--to varying degrees--they hold dominion over its subjects and attempt to corrupt the innocent.

Cum Tenebris Lux Veritatis

Edited October 4, 2004 by Forza

[The Old Man]

For Beelzubub's sake, she's Satan incarnate! She hardly needs to book a flight to get from D.C. to Seattle!

ROFL!

[Guest Mikal C Johnson KtCym ECA]

Demons here on earth have not yet been to Hell.

They don't come from Hell.

Hell is a place made by God to punish them. Once they go there, they will never come back.... and they won't enjoy it.

Matthew 25:41

"Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

II Peter 2:4

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment...

[Guest LeHah]

My interpretation was that Lucy Butler was something of an emissary of evil, not Lucifer himself.

I also disagree with the notion that Alister Pepper was a demon. In his episode, they remark that he had died briefly months earlier. I think the case was more "possession" or something out of Flatliners than anything else and other evidence supports that (After he died, he changed his law practice to violent criminal defense - of which, the young man accused of killing Bob Bletcher was Pepper's first client)

[Guest Seraphim]

Pepper was definately not a demon to begin with. He was a vessel for one. Lucy could be either or. According to some sources demons do reside in hell already. In 2 Enoch the fallen are imprisoned in the 2nd Heaven. The Binle itself is an awful source for information on angels and demons. Very little detail is given on them. It's ironic how lacking the bible is on many topics. Apocryphal sources shed much light on various thoughts within the bible. The problem being, Christian or not, the Bible was not written by God then handed to humanity. It was made by compiling various texts. The truly ironic thing is that one of the chief individuals involved in the canonization was a pagan. Despite saying Constantine was a Christian, until the time of his death he was still a sun worshiper. As for the others involved; The bishops back then squabbled over the silliest things. Ultimarely the bible was made based on what the Bishops could agree on and what Constantine saw as politically helpful. The best sources for demons are occult grimoires. The Key of Solomon The King is filled with demon summon spells. Enoch speaks of the fallen Grigori (Watchers). You'll find differences between pre-christian and contemporary sources. Satan did not even exist in Judaism till about the second century BC. He was adopted to remove evil from God. The Jews traditionally did not believe in hell either. There was Gehenna, were one was purified and Sheol, which was the resting place of the dead. Lucifer was not taditionally a demon either. In Job he is listed amongst the heavenly beings.

[Guest Mikal C Johnson KtCym ECA]

While I agree that Constantine was a pagan and did not help the Church as much as myth says, he did not have a hand in the Canonization of the Bible.

The Old Testament (the Jewish Scriptures) had already been compiled before the time of Jesus.

As for the New Testament, its formation began at the end of the first century (about AD 90)... almost 200 before Constantine. The acceptance of the four Gospel accounts in our current Bibles was well in place when Irenaeus wrote his works in the late second century (about AD 180)... 100 years before Constantine.

In the year AD 230 Origen listed the books that were the "accepted" canon... 40 years before Constantine was born. He lists:

The Gospel According to Matthew

The Gospel According to Mark

The Gospel According to Luke

The Gospel According to John

The Acts of the Apostles

all of Paul's epistles

1 Peter

1 John

The Revelation

He also notes that Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, James, and Jude were being considered.

By the time of Constantine, the canon was complete. There was no "squabbling" about it. The Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church independently agreed on what was canon and what was not.

The "official" RCC list was made at the Council of Hippo in AD 397. Constantine had been dead for 60 years at that point, so he had no hand in it, either. However, 30 years earlier, the EOC had confirmed, for their own uses, the exact same list.

Constantine's only role in the whole subject was that he requested that Eusebius make 50 copies of the Bible for him. These Bibles were made from a list of books that were already in the canon.

Anyway, you're right that there's a lot of information about the subject of angels and demons in non-Biblical books. And some of the information contradicts other bits. So it can't all be accepted.

Personally, I accept Enoch. My main reason is that both Jude and Peter quoted and made reference to it. However, for various textual/historic reasons, I only accept I & II Enoch. Most scholars have doubts about the later volumes.

Also, you are right that there are distinctions between Sheol/Hades, Gehenna/Tartarus, and The Abyss.

Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) are the temporary place of torment for the souls of the wicked dead. Prior to Christ's resurrection, saints were kept and comforted in the now vacant half of Hades, known as Abraham's Bosom. Gehenna (Greek, but from a Hebrew name) is the Lake of Fire for the permanent place of torment of the souls of the wicked dead in their resurrected bodies. Hell is a rather general and inadequate term that is often used to refer to either Gehenna or the torment side of Hades, both by those who know the basic difference between these two specific places and by those who do not.

And again, you are right that demons are not angelic beings. Lucifer is not a demon.

While I disagree about Scriptural inspiration, I respect your right to disbelieve it.

Edited October 5, 2004 by Mikal C Johnson KtCym ECA