Are Women Not Allowed to be an "Old Man" in the Group?

[Earthnut]

On 11/26/2015, 12:41:02, Frank Black Jr said:

interesting ideas here...I've always been suspicious about Peter Watts wife...U know...if she was also in the MG

Absolutely love this image of Catherine, and "The Sound of Snow" is one of my favorite episodes.

I have no doubts that Mrs. Watts was a member, but a very quiet one though.  She'd have to be to put up with Peter's agenda.

[Libby]

I've had huge problems engaging with this topic, because it raises so many issues for me. Here's what I've managed to write so far, while trying to be as neutral as I can:

It’s an interesting question. I suppose it depends on which version of the Millennium Group. I doubt that the season one MG would have much difficulty with a woman being the leader. They were all ex-FBI and, although the FBI hasn’t yet had a female Director, there are undoubtedly women who have risen to the higher levels.

It wasn’t until season two that the character of The Old Man was introduced, and that version of the MG became more mystical and, in terms of its apparently long history, more like Freemasons or Knights of St Columba or Catenians, which sometimes can have great influence in parishes and local communities and beyond. Women are not permitted to join those societies; they do have a value, as wives and mothers, and they can have a respected career outside the home, preferably in the caring professions.

I do wonder what Barbara Watts’ level of education might have been, or what work she might have done before she got married. I don’t think it was stated what subject Taylor Watts was studying, but I understand that William & Mary university is high-ranking academically. I also wonder whether there would have been expectations that she would marry into the MG group.

I very much doubt that the season two version of the MG would have an Old Woman. Which is a bit odd, considering that in medieval times there were women who were very powerful and respected. For instance, the Synod of Whitby was a crucial point in the direction that Christianity would take in Anglo-Saxon England. Saint Hilda was the Abbess of a joint monastery/nunnery in Whitby, and was well respected for her knowledge and wisdom (and probably did some shuttle negotiating between the two opposing factions). Yet in subsequent centuries, women became increasingly downgraded. I know there was at least one state in the USA where women originally had the vote but that was then taken away from them.

I’ve always disliked the second version of the MG. I personally don’t like the mysticism and religiosity, but I know that a lot of people appreciate that aspect, because it opens up questions about meaning, about both the human condition and our understanding of the world around us, which science cannot (yet? ever?) give complete explanations for. But there’s a kind of misogyny plus control in the second version which doesn’t work for me at all.

[Frank Black Jr]

mmm...there was a woman...in that episode where they talked about a nuclear bomb...She was part of the MG and was very angry with them. I remember she was very agressive with Peter Watts. I liked her hahaha. Remember? That episode that starts with the suicide of an agent. And it was about the first atomic explosion. Cool episode.

btw: that pic freak me out. It was the episode when Catherine was kidnapped and was under the car.

[Earthnut]

That scene was terrifying with Catherine under the car.  

In the episodes of Owls and Roosters, at the end when the new Old Man put the piece of the cross on the shelf, in the back, I think it would have been even better to have had a women there instead of another man, giving the show an added mystery.  But as Libby stated, most societies were all men.  Yes, the women had/have value, but not with decision making, which really was/is the influence these groups needed and still do.  Getting them to admit it is another subject.

Season 2 was not only good, but has some of the biggest fan favorite episodes, like Beware of the Dog, The Curse of Frank Black, Jose Chung's Doomsday Defense, Midnight of the Century, Luminary, and the great, The Mikado.  Then the Lucy Butler pancake episode, A Room with No View.  It had some great episodes, and with the conclusion of Catherine's kidnapping; unbelievable story lines.  I'm one of those people who can't pick a favorite season, because I have favorite episodes in all of them, and like a lot of other people, I have a strong appreciation for the battle between good and evil, that we face every day in our lives and around our world.  Basically, all three season were good vs evil, and had religious or spiritual (which I prefer) elements to it.  Look at The Sound of Snow in season 3, talk about a spiritual experience, and the list goes on.

We love the show, all 3 seasons, that's why we're here at the forums, and some of us every day.  The show stayed with us because of the impact some of the episodes had on our lives.  It really was, and still is one of the best shows ever, and I doubt if we will ever say, "Goodbye To All That."  We want more...it's who we are.

 

[Frank Black Jr]

I agree. Not a fan of religion but I really like when the writers search historical things, or why not religious, and the second season is full of amazing info. Lucy was too in the face for my taste. I liked the first episode, when she was married with that terrible Dr. And the idea of being a regular/common person of the other episode was very interesting. "Love is blue". The others when it was more about evil...not my kind of thing...to easy for this show. But the actress was great so I liked them anyway. Of course this is an opinion but I enjoy more the idea of evil rather than see a woman/man acting as the devil. In every season, I have episodes that I like and others that I will never undertstand what they were thinking hahaha.

[seesthru]

Lucy wasn't my favorite character. But she's been there throughout, or rather, "legion"  has since season one.  I think she was a necessary character for the way the show went, all  supernatural. I like how you have Lucy butler and then other incarnations  that  were part of the unholy  multi-essence that was legion.

Speaking of religion, Frank was agnostic at best. In Season 1 They didn't really get into it beyond dealing with Jordan's question about a dead bird. But in Season 2, Catherine is in teh church,  Jordan is doing the Christmas play,  Frank Sees angels in the churchyard... FOr all his seeing demons and Angels, it's weird Frank is a non believer.  Never expected him to be a fundie or anything, but... HIs lack of belief was odd.  If yo see demons?  You must at least subconsciously believe in    Angels, and a creator. 

[seesthru]

On 11/26/2015, 12:41:02, Frank Black Jr said:

interesting ideas here...I've always been suspicious about Peter Watts wife...U know...if she was also in the MG

She was his wife before he was in the group. So, I'm not really sure if she was a member, but she was definitely a  "company wife".   When the daughter came home after being kidnapped, they were eating, and the daughter asked if what the army kid said was true.  I think the look that the wife gave was one of guilty knowing.  Maybe she's like Katherine in that she knows that there is secrecy, ( how could one not know?) but unlike Catherine, she  accepts   it.  You know, the show really did itself no favors by keeping her in the background. You don't even see her int he midnight of the century episode   and the party is at the watts' house!  You catch a glimpse of her in  Luminary, a short dinner scene in the collateral damage episode. Then  a  couple of others. nothing concrete.

[Frank Black Jr]

I guess Frank changes from season to season. In fact, I think that is one of the reasons why Lance didn't like the direction of show after season 1. "Borrowed time" (I believe that is the name of that great episode, the one that has the train accident and the man with the watch) Frank talks with that man, who is an angel or more likely Death because he is coming for Jordan. And if U know that...and still remain agnostic...well...But again, I think Frank changes. His best partner for me was Lara and she sees angels. And also knows that Jordan is going that road. But now that U mention one of the episodes that really bothered me was that one with that girl that sees a virgin. When she talks to Catherine ( who of course doesn't believe her) and tell her all about the polaroid man. And then, Catherine doesn't react a bit. How in the world could she knew that if she doesn't have some kind of a gift? Did she saw it in Catherine´s facebook? Wth? hahaha :P

[Earthnut]

Actually, Catherine did react, but it was subtle, more in her eyes then anywhere.  The episode is Anamnesis.  It shocked her, just as it would anyone, and betting she couldn't move when she heard it all.  Clare didn't see a virgin, she saw Mary Magdalene, who I believe was Jesus' most devoted follower, along with John.  Mary was the first person to see Jesus after the resurrection at the tomb.

Catherine understood and saw more then people give/gave her credit for.  She however, keeps it all inside, meditates on it.  Here's the conversation `

Quote

CLARE: I used to be a chronicler like you. Only, I believed. Then I got tested, like you. And I didn't believe.
CATHERINE: Tested?
CLARE: By the man who took all the pictures of you – the one who told you the truth.
[Yet another flashback from the episode "The Beginning and the End" as The Polaroid Stalker looks upward, bleeding from the mouth.]
[The playground. Catherine sighs and looks downward as Clare turns the bracelet on her right wrist with her hand. The children jump off the merry-go-round. The merry-go-round continues to swivel as Clare continues to rotate her bracelet. Clare removes her shoes and runs bare-footed over to the merry-go-round.]
CATHERINE: Clare?
[Clare gleefully grips the merry-go-round as it turns by itself. Lara approaches the bench from behind and watches Clare as well. However, unlike Catherine, she sees Clare in slow-motion, bathed in a bright light.]
CATHERINE: (looking behind and upward at Lara) Are you alright?
[Lara doesn't respond, but continues to watch the girl spin in circles.]
 
[Catherine's mini-van.]
CATHERINE: You think she's a visionary? (sighs) All I see is a child who's getting a kick out of turning this town upside down.
LARA: A child who can recite gnostic texts?
CATHERINE: (looking at Lara with curiosity) That wasn't from the Bible?
LARA: Before Emperor Constantine even became a Christian in 337, he ordered the confiscation and destruction of all works that challenged orthodox Christianity as set forth by the council of Nicaea in 325. The so-called gnostic texts were excluded from the Bible for, among other things, promoting the idea that Mary Magdalene was Christ's witness and the only apostle who truly understood Christ's teachings. Clare was reciting from a text called "Thunder Perfect Mind" – it's fascinating. Page after page of contradictions, "I am the virgin and the whore", "the mother and the daughter".
CATHERINE: The alpha and the omega?
LARA: That one she tacked on.
CATHERINE: So she doesn't have any idea what she's saying?
[Lara doesn't respond.]

 

[Frank Black Jr]

I appreciate the info Earthnut :-) but...mmmm...for me, the reaction was too small. Imagine your reaction if someone who is supposed to have a gift, someone who claim to see as you well said :) Mary Magdalene. And tells you something about you that almost no one knows...I will freak out! hahaha.