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Guest fledgling666

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Guest fledgling666

:mabiuswoz'ere:ok, this is the forum for Millennium-related discussion. i wasn't sure if that meant so closely related as to not be allowed to include things of only coincidental nature with the show or not, but here goes:

i just watched the Exorcist: the beginning. this will not be a movie review, so it won't fit in the "art and literature" forum.

the film got me thinking about something that i had only previously thought about lightly when brought up in another film- The Prophecy. bearing in mind i am a complete and utter atheist, but love to study religion, the question i formed was this: if the angel Lucifer had been cast out of heaven and fell to Earth, where DID he fall? where did he land? did he die? did he become a man? sorry, it's a multi-part question that just continues creating more and more questions.

anyway, so i did some web searches today to get other people's opinions on these sorts of questions and what i found is a little interesting. there seems to only be 2 mentions of the name Lucifer in the bible, all other times he is called Satan, the Dragon, etc. he is also often referred to as the Morning Star, the brightest, etc. Jesus Christ is also quoted in the bible calling himself the Morning Star, the brightest, etc. so, did someone make mistakes in translation? is he indeed the same person? spirit? it states in the bible that Lucifer was the most perfect angel created. Christ is said to be the son of God. being the son of God, would it not be assumed he was perfect? Lucifer is the Light Bearer, Christ is the Light. both were sent to Earth, maybe for different reasons? maybe for different interpretations of the same reason? *edit- wrong theory, i jumped on it too quickly. what i think now is that the translator just screwed up.

another article i read says there has not been demonic possession since the first century AD because God used it merely to have something to show the strength of Jesus.

is Lucifer "Pazuzu," as suggested in the first Exorcist film? if so, is Pazuzu "Ahriman," from Zoroastranism, the first monotheistic religion?

*edit - the reason i ask this is because it has long been suggested that the Gilgamesh is the original telling of the old testament, or at least, Genesis.

then, in amongst the information i perused today, there was mention of a religious sect i thought i may have heard mentioned here before, so i did some more searching and came up with the ESSENES. seems they were non-ceremonial, non-mingling, group of christians before there was a Christ. they were hard-working, quiet, followed everyday life like a precision machine, did not go to Jewish Temple, but sent gifts as offerings, which included no animal products. they dressed in white to eat and their merely doing hard work was prayer enough. they respected and recognized most, if not all the religions at the time and practised some of each, a little Buddhism with Judaism and so on. they even actively practised things similar to Shamanism, by using herbal and other sorts of remedies and such. they kept everything extremely secret and did not marry until necessary, most never marrying. they believed in one God and prophecied the coming of the son of God.

then, i also found the Druze, who are around today and in present day Lebanon and Isreal, mostly. they are basically the same. they have no actual worship, no holy dates, no holy places. they take all religions into account, practice herbal healing, hold Christ, Mohamed, God, Ahura Mazda and Buddha all on the same level and they also do not intermarry and haven't for hundreds of years.

this is not a religious discussion. your actual faith, or lack of it, should not play a part in responding to any of this. if mods feel it is too close to the edge, delete it, i don't mind, but just to make it clear one more time, this isn't meant to stir anyone's emotions, just an academic-sorta-study-thing for me. i like to talk about these subjects and to find out more info on them and this is one way to do that, by having your peers discuss it with you.

*i will post links to the various articles when i have a chance..... :bigsmile::angel:

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is Lucifer "Pazuzu," as suggested in the first Exorcist film? if so, is Pazuzu "Ahriman," from Zoroastranism, the first monotheistic religion?

i will post links to the various articles when i have a chance..... :bigsmile:  :angel:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't worry, you aren't the only atheist interested in this stuff, but wasn't

Pazuzu a Mesopotamian demon instead of Zoroastrian? And what's funny

is that even though he was a big bad MFer, I think they used his amulet

as protection for mothers ready to give birth. There was some other demon

that would bring sickness to children.

And couldn't we count the sun disc religion of the Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten

the 'first' monotheism? Not trying to be a nitpicking b*******, just making

sure we're talking about the same stuff. :bigsmile:

Looking forward to your links!

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Guest Seraphim
Don't worry, you aren't the only atheist interested in this stuff, but wasn't

Pazuzu a Mesopotamian demon instead of Zoroastrian? And what's funny

is that even though he was a big bad MFer, I think they used his amulet

as protection for mothers ready to give birth. There was some other demon

that would bring sickness to children.

And couldn't we count the sun disc religion of the Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten

the 'first' monotheism? Not trying to be a nitpicking b*******, just making

sure we're talking about the same stuff.  :bigsmile: 

Looking forward to your links!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pazuzu is on such amulets due to the fact he is an enemy of the demon Lamashtu. Lamashtu was the one said to bring disease, so Pazuzu was willing to protect humans from his enemy. Pazuzu is dated to the first millennium BC. He is said to be a wind demon. Ahriman is basically a fallen angel, so can be equated with Lucifer, though it is a translation error in Isaiah that equates Lucifer with "The Devil". Lucifer is actually, in the old testament, a high ranking angel. There is no mention of fallen angels and Satan is a heavenly position, not a term for a supreme evil. It was not till later than Satan as an enemy of God came into being. Ahriman was likely the prototype for the fallen angel and dualistic aspects of Judeo-Christianity. As Ahura Mazda and Ahriman were much like the current concept of God and Satan. The psudepigraphical "Book of Enoch" and "Book of Adam and Eve" speak of "fallen angels", but their dates of composition are argued. He dates to about the same time according to scholars, though many Zoroastrians believe that their religion is about eight thousand years old, so it is arguable. Ahriman is believed to have been borrowed from a Vedic deity, Aryaman. Though it is possible that that it is the opposite. It can be argued which came first Zoroastrianism or Akhenaten's beliefs. Both, according to scholars, existed around the same time.

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according to scholars, though many Zoroastrians believe that their religion is about eight thousand years old, so it is arguable. Ahriman is believed to have been borrowed from a Vedic deity, Aryaman.  Though it is possible that that it is the opposite. It can be argued which came first Zoroastrianism or Akhenaten's beliefs. Both, according to scholars, existed around the same time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hasn't Zoroastrianism been dated to about the time of the fall of Nineveh in 612 BC, given that's when Zoroaster lived? Obviously, like every other religion to an extent, it was partially syncretic and assuredly borrowed some concepts from older sources, but I don't ever remember seeing any sources saying it was much older than that.

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Guest Seraphim
Hasn't Zoroastrianism been dated to about the time of the fall of Nineveh in 612 BC, given that's when Zoroaster lived? Obviously, like every other religion to an extent, it was partially syncretic and assuredly borrowed some concepts from older sources, but I don't ever remember seeing any sources saying it was much older than that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is the general consensus, yes. It is said he was taught by Jeremiah. But, some believe he lived up to a few hundred years before then. Topics like this are, of course, arguable.

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Guest fledgling666

funny thing is, i self-moderated because i thought bringing up a discussion involving religion would get my username mysteriously deleted again. well, anyway, i have the post saved just in case it was ok, so i will fix it later. thanks for replies and when i have time, i'll go through them and add more questions and bring in more stuff for discussion.

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funny thing is, i self-moderated because i thought bringing up a discussion involving religion would get my username mysteriously deleted again. well, anyway, i have the post saved just in case it was ok, so i will fix it later. thanks for replies and when i have time, i'll go through them and add more questions and bring in more stuff for discussion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was wondering why you deleted your own post. They did, occasionally, reference religion in Millennium. :bigsmile:

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Guest fledgling666

yeah, but we're still not allowed to talk about it because of the whole "there is a god/there isn't a god" argument. some people, i guess take it too seriously, but then again, i'm an atheist saying that, so, for someone who does believe, i guess it IS probably more serious than we who don't believe may think.

so, anyway, i will fix the openning post now and get back later.

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  • Elders (Admins)

As we've pointed out many times before, religious discussion relating to Millennium episodes has never been prohibited, just open religious discussion and debate, because like politics it always gets out of hand.

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