Lamentations With Principalites And Powers

[4th Horseman]

Well, I know who the REAL guy was, but what about the "Kingdom Come" referrance?  I'm just drawing a blank as to what caracter "Crowly" was.

My 1st boyfriend in high-school was REALY into this guy.... which is where I first learned about him, otherwize, I probably would have been totaly clueless during the whole PPTD referrance. So, don't feel bad, Grahem. 

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Raven Wolf...

Wanda Wilkinson as Sister Beatrice Crowly

thats the credit line from Kingdom Come...whether or not it meant something, i dont really know..but Aleister Crowley came immediately to mind...thats not a very common last name...maybe i just wanted 2 + 2 to = 4.

[Guest fledgling666]

I've read more than a little of Crowley's writings, and contrary to the popular image, esp. among Christian fundies, he was not a Satanist.

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well, i have read some of AC's writings, and own "the book of the law." but i would like to differ in that i don't think he was the "classic" satanist, the crazy f*ker who loves horror movies and doesn't know what else to do with his life but hate his parents, he was the deeper, darker, archetypal satanist. his sermons of "do what thou wilt" are satanism at it's finest, whether he actually claims to be in cahoots with the devil or not. and why else would he say his mother gave him the number 666?

as far as the connection with millennium, i think the afore mentioned beattles album had the closest name relation going, being that it was called sargeant PEPPER and that it may have a picture of AC on it. Allister Pepper, right there.

now, about Samael:

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp...id=106&letter=S

It is possible.. ..that the name is derived from that of the Syrian god Shemal (Bousset, "Religion," p. 242). Samael is the "chief of Satans" (Deut. R. xi. 9; Jellinek, "B. H." i. 125), quite in the sense of "the prince of the devils" mentioned in Matt. ix. 34; but, on the other hand, he is "the great prince in heaven." (Pirḳe R. El. xiii., beginning), who rules over angels and powers (ib.; Martyrdom of Isaiah, ii. 2).

https://www.catholic.org/saints/anglchoi.php

Powers

Powers are Warrior Angels against evil defending the cosmos and humans. They are known as potentates. They fight against evil spirits who attempt to wreak chaos through human beings. The chief is said to be either Samael or Camael, both angels of darkness.

[hippyroo]

"Principalities

In the New Testament Principalities refers to one type of spiritual (metaphysical) being which are now quite hostile to God and human beings. (Rom 8:38; 1 Cor 15:24; Eph 1:21; 3:10; 6:12; Col 1:16; 2:10, 15) Along with the principalities are the powers (Rom 8:38; 1 Cor 15:24; Eph 1:21; 1 Pt 3:22; 2 Thes 1:7); and cosmological powers (1 Cor 15:24; Eph 1:21; 3:10; Col 2:15);Dominions (Eph 1:21; Col 1:16) and thrones (Col 1:16). The clarity of the New Testament witness helps see that these beings were created through Christ and for Him (Col 1:16). Given their hostility to God and humans due to sin, Christ's ultimate rule over them (ibid) expresses the reign of the Lord over all in the cosmos. This is the Lordship of Christ, which reveals God's tremendous salvation in conquering sin and death at the cross, and now takes place in the Church. (Eph 3:10)"

"Powers

Powers are Warrior Angels against evil defending the cosmos and humans. They are known as potentates. They fight against evil spirits who attempt to wreak chaos through human beings. The chief is said to be either Samael or Camael, both angels of darkness."

These definitons seem to be what Principalites and Powers is all about. I feel better now.. ha.

[Guest arcanamundi]

well, i have read some of AC's writings, and own "the book of the law." but i would like to differ in that i don't think he was the "classic" satanist, the crazy f*ker who loves horror movies and doesn't know what else to do with his life but hate his parents, he was the deeper, darker, archetypal satanist. his sermons of "do what thou wilt" are satanism at it's finest, whether he actually claims to be in cahoots with the devil or not. and why else would he say his mother gave him the number 666?

I admit I'm not expert on satanism, but I think Crowley was certainly anti-christian; does that make him satanic? And he did seem to revel in blasphemy. From the bios I've read, he came from a strict Protestant sect and so was well versed in the Bible. He was a rebellious teen, and when she lost her temper with him his mother would call him the Beast 666. He couldn't stand his mother, but he embraced the epithet, even later making it into a ceremonial office, the role of anti-christian prophet. When he got into studying Hebrew and Christian mysticism he learned that 666 has kabbalistic meaning that has nothing to do with satanism or the devil. (Unless you believe that kabbalah, as well as anything un- or anti-Christian, is inherently satanic, which of course many Christians do)

[Raven Wolf]

Raven Wolf...

Wanda Wilkinson as Sister Beatrice Crowly

thats the credit line from Kingdom Come...whether or not it meant something, i dont really know..but Aleister Crowley came immediately to mind...thats not a very common last name...maybe i just wanted 2 + 2 to = 4.

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4th Horseman! Good eye!

[Guest quentin compson]

Some random thoughts ...

First of, these two episodes are great. Lucy Butler/The long-haired man in Frank's house must have been one of the scariest moments in 90s TV and definitely holds its own against the best moments on The X Files or maybe even Twin Peaks.

To me, it seemed quite clear that Pepper was a somewhat lesser figure in the hierarchy of evil - compared to Lucy Butler, that is. But the topic of Frank getting tempted by evil is very interesting and stirring. By the way, I also support the explanation of Pepper's name someone posted here - it's Crowley and his appearance on the cover of the Beatles' "Sergeant Pepper" album.

The way I understood it, Sammael is a figure in between or beyond the antagonism of good and evil. I guess his mission was to keep the balance between those two forces that the Old Man talks about in "Beware of the Dog". Sammael kills Pepper because of some unknown deeds the latter will commit in the future - deeds that probably would put said balance in danger. I think this would also be in line with the ambiguous things we learn about Sammael in the bible.

Anyway, "Lucy Butler" was just great and an interesting and somehow disarming way to introduce a personalized form of evil.

[hippyroo]

Yes, Sam even says he didn't really "kill" him. The balance agent seems to fit the show. Though I love Lucy (pun), I think Pepper is just another manisfitation of the evil entity that was in Lucy as well.

[Guest rubicondecisionday]

The word "Phaestos" is cryptic. It's listed in the Grimoire. It's written by Alistair Pepper several times (like a conjuring?). I've never seen an explanation. I do know from my Archeology class that the people of Crete had something to do with Snakes and religion: the bare-breasted figure from the Palace of Knossos.

It demonstrates a remarkable depth to the series.

'Sorry about resurrecting old threads. I thought it might be helpful for anyone else who enjoyed the show.

[ethsnafu]

Please don't apologise for digging old threads up. As you say, never members will never have seen them and even older members may have missed them in the day or have new insights to add to them. That said, I notice this is your first post so allow me to bid you a warm welcome to TIWWA and here's hoping you enjoy your stay here.

The Phaestos reference in the grimoire is unusual and I have never seen an explanation either for its usage. My assumption is, as was the case with Samael, that they chose a name from occult literature and used a variant spelling of it as neither Sammiel in Millennium is spelt according to the correct rendering. It could be a nod to Faustus (or Faust) who according to legend made a pact with devil as the episode certainly suggests that Pepper is an avatar of Legion. Other than that I truly don't know. Maybe others have an idea.

Eth

[Guest rubicondecisionday]

Please don't apologise for digging old threads up. As you say, never members will never have seen them and even older members may have missed them in the day or have new insights to add to them. That said, I notice this is your first post so allow me to bid you a warm welcome to TIWWA and here's hoping you enjoy your stay here.

The Phaestos reference in the grimoire is unusual and I have never seen an explanation either for its usage. My assumption is, as was the case with Samael, that they chose a name from occult literature and used a variant spelling of it as neither Sammiel in Millennium is spelt according to the correct rendering. It could be a nod to Faustus (or Faust) who according to legend made a pact with devil as the episode certainly suggests that Pepper is an avatar of Legion. Other than that I truly don't know. Maybe others have an idea.

Eth

Phaestos is an in depth nod to the serpent religion of the people of Crete. See: https://books.google.com/books?id=u3tBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA137&dq=religion+of+crete+serpents&hl=en&ei=4qG0TJDVJMT68Ab0lvzyCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=religion%20of%20crete%20serpents&f=false

In other words, in the mythic world of Millenium, a group of Eve-like priestesses who worship the serpent. Who knows the truth of this ancient nature religion? Here, the writer of the episode is illustrating that Phaestos could be one of the most ancient places of "serpent worship" i.e. the Devil. (Not my analogy by the way, associating pagan worship with Devil worship shows poor research).

I think Pepper is possessed by selling his soul to the Devil. Clearly Samael is the Angel of Death who kills the mortal vessel of Lucifer. Frank can see beyond our natural limitations of perception, hence he perceives Samael's exchange of power. In some writings https://books.google.com/books?id=eWyN0PkuhdEC&pg=PA171&dq=samael+angel&hl=en&ei=PaS0TLyLHcH-8AaxhvmRDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=samael%20angel&f=false

Samael is a fallen angel. The being is neither good nor evil in the sense that he is fallen yet persists in his role as the angel of Death and so continues to serve Yahweh.

https://books.google.com/books?id=_doOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA61&dq=samael+angel&hl=en&ei=0aS0TMvtAsP78Ab2id2ADA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=samael%20angel&f=false

In the above reference, Samael is another manifestation of Lucifer.

More information about Phaestos and the role of the Serpent here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=cJlmWuXCCecC&pg=PA91&dq=phaistos+evil&hl=en&ei=XaW0TLqDE8G78gbSt-nnAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false