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Guest LadyBlack
I just meant that you should read my thoughts in that section (Heart of Darkness) of the board...I talk there about my thoughts on Catherine and her role in the series...I hope this helps, or did you mean that you read what I wrote there and are asking for an elaboration on that?

Vv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, no, I see what you mean. I will go look for said thread, thanks. Later note : Where is it, please?

MMM (may I cal you that :bigsmile: ), I was afraid that the writers had largely made a bit of a mess with their relationship. I know that Chris Carter probably had very different plans for Frank and therefore Catherine, and I often wondered if his intention was to have had her kidnapped and then have a season where Frank is searching for her - just a thought. I took from....episode one of season two that yes, Frank lost his temper, became someone unrecognizable to Catherine because of his anger towards Polaroid man, but I don't understand how Catherine could have been a threat to his mental state. Unless, of course, she was meaning that if she were kidnapped or injured in the future, then Frank would be perhaps tipped over the edge. She surely should have seen that she acts as his stability in his rather tortuous, dark world. More than that, if it had been Jordan who had been kidnapped, and Catherine had come across the kidnapper first, I would be willing to bet she would have acted with equal ferocity towards him. Also, Frank's mental state was being steadily eroded with the appearance of the photographs. Once the Polaroid man was dead, I would have thought they would expect their lives not only to go back to being normal, but in fact to improve greatly.

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Guest ModernDayMoriarty

Remember though that Catherine saw the man she married vanishing in front of her eyes to be replaced with someone else. As she says in 'The Thin White Line' she firmly believes that Frank is not a man capable of murdering anyone. He was therefore now someone quite different to who she married and therefore there were grounds for her wanting a separation to try and stop this. She had needs and feelings too; just because she was Frank's stablity doesn't mean she would stay under this kind of pressure with someone she felt she no longer completely understood.

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Remember though that Catherine saw the man she married vanishing in front of her eyes to be replaced with someone else. As she says in 'The Thin White Line' she firmly believes that Frank is not a man capable of murdering anyone. He was therefore now someone quite different to who she married and therefore there were grounds for her wanting a separation to try and stop this. She had needs and feelings too; just because she was Frank's stablity doesn't mean she would stay under this kind of pressure with someone she felt she no longer completely understood.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. It is also not easy to see someone you love become compulsive obsesseve about their work over family. Probably why many actors and actress' become divorced. :smokin::ouro:

you can pick your friends... you can pick your nose .... but you can NEVER pick your friend's nose !!

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT!

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I agree.  It is also not easy to see someone you love become compulsive obsesseve about their work over family.  Probably why many actors and actress' become divorced.  :smokin:  :ouro:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My two cents is that Catherine made marginal, if any attempts to truely understand Frank's gifts...there are two episodes where by, in my opinion, pretty much sum up the situation...the first is in "Monsters" when Peter meets Catherine to tell her Frank is in trouble..here is the quote

What you're talking about was done out of selfishness. What

Frank did was from sacrifice to protect his family. That is his life.

Catherine, there are people in this world who have a gift and no matter

how hard they try to ignore it they know its true purpose, what that

gift must be used for. This is who we are.

The 2nd instance is in Luminary when Catherine goes over to Peter's house..(and whats with the daughters wearing fake mustaches???) :eyes:

Do you remember when Catherine asks Peter how he does it? He mentions his wife and family, then Catherine says "So its my fault?"...Peter then says its not a matter of who is at fault, its a matter of knowing where you stand in the scheme of things...thats not a direct quote, but paraphrasing...

Frank tried many times to re-establish a relationship with Catherine after he killed the stalker in "The Beginning and the End". And frankly, (no pun intended), i would think that she could have been a WEE bit more appreciative of what he HAD to do. The Group already had knowledge of this person, even to the point in the episode of an elder telling Peter "He is only doing what we should have done"..so i find no fault with Frank's actions. I got quite a bit irritated with her "needing more time" or "I dont think we can get it back" attitude.

I think that Frank became aware of the impossibility of a reconciliation in "Midnight of the Century" when he said:

"Come on, you know Jordan: she's got a

gift, you can't suppress it."

"It is what it is.

There is nothing we can do to fix it."

With that, I think that Frank finds out exactly how Catherine feels

about his abilities.

On the other hand, you have to hand it to a woman who went thru what she did. Two people killed in their house, Lucy Butler wandering around upstairs, kidneys in the frig, shadows passing thru the outside motion sensor light, her daughter drawing angels with a dead grandmother, etc....

So, in closing, her character seemed to be doomed from the start, what with the developing "gifts" that Jordan had....

"And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. Hades followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him." REV 6:8

fourthhorsemananimatedsigna3rr.gif

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I was pretty irritated at Catherine's reaction to what Frank did to save her, too. Hell, if some guy did that for ME, I think I'd be a bit more appreciative!!! And I'm not a violent person!

I tried to see it as part of the thread they were trying to weave....Like the trials of Jobe or something...but there were inconsistancies that never quite worked with me. #1 She said she needed time, so he left...to give her time...yet, then, in Luminary, the Elder members of the group stated "Your family left you!" And #2 Catherine kept going on and on at him about moving back to the house, without her, when SHE's the one who said she needed time...and then she moved out, too! Why pay a house note on a house no-one's living in? And, everyone kept going on and on at him like he'd left her, when she said she needed time...and all he did was give it to her. Go figure. *sigh* It's *BLEEP* like that that gives women a bad name. :nope:

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Guest ModernDayMoriarty

You see why I have problems with S2 now yes? M+W seem to have had a mid-season rethink on Catherine and changed her motivation for leaving Frank! It may have had something to do with widespread discontent (and bewilderment) over her actions at the end of 'The Beginning and the End'. Many didn't feel her action was at all logical or believeable after Frank had worked so hard to save her.

But still, don't be too hard on Catherine. It took Frank years and years even living with a gift like he had to finally accept the real state of the world. Why should Catherine have been forced to continue suffering for her husband's impossible dreams? Talk of greater evils, the death of close friends, the danger to her and her daughter... It's a great burden and one that the MLM Group knows full well that most people are simply not ready to handle.

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You see why I have problems with S2 now yes? M+W seem to have had a mid-season rethink on Catherine and changed her motivation for leaving Frank! It may have had something to do with widespread discontent (and bewilderment) over her actions at the end of 'The Beginning and the End'. Many didn't feel her action was at all logical or believeable after Frank had worked so hard to save her.

But still, don't be too hard on Catherine. It took Frank years and years even living with a gift like he had to finally accept the real state of the world. Why should Catherine have been forced to continue suffering for her husband's impossible dreams? Talk of greater evils, the death of close friends, the danger to her and her daughter... It's a great burden and one that the MLM Group knows full well that most people are simply not ready to handle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

absolutely...Catherine was the perverbial mystery wrapped in riddle inside an enigma. Her character became a burden during S2, and they obviously wanted to embellish the developing abilities of Jordan, along with strengthening the bond between daughter and father. I have always given her props for enduring the occurrences which befell her. She was both a pillar and a house built on sand at the same time....

"And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. Hades followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him." REV 6:8

fourthhorsemananimatedsigna3rr.gif

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I've largely not been a Catherine fan, but I do believe she has great qualities and adds a lot to the show (I know no one is arguing this, I'm just saying...) Her character changes with good reason over her two seasons, but it is also changed with less good reason, IMHO.

I agree that Catherine's reaction to 'being saved' from the Polaroid Man was extreme, but so were the circumstances around her needing to be rescued from PM. Yes, Frank's reaction was also extreme, as a member of the law force, and as someone, as pointed out earlier, Catherine couldn't imagine committing murder. Yes, he's been a gun-carrying law enforcement official for damn near as long as she's been alive (go find the MM timeline), and probably shot at/shot at a body or two in his career (I seem to remember him shooting in the Thin White Line flashbacks, but I could easily be mistaken). But she wasn't present at the other occasions, and Frank was acting as a cop. In TBATE, his intentions were different (obviously). He was trying to kill someone with his bare hands - not just subdue the PM or render him unconscious. It's very shocking even to watch; I can't even imagine what it'd be like, to be abducted, to think your daughter dead, and be tormented by a man who'd stalked you for years and about whom you'd never known – then have your husband, whom you’d probably been silently invoking the whole time, break in and kill the man three feet from you. There may be a bit of the whole wanting someone dead but not wanting kill the person thing going on. I think Frank sort of failed Catherine's expectations of him – not that I can say what she wanted, but that she didn’t like what she got.

But regardless of what happened to the PM, I'd find it very difficult for anyone to question Catherine's wanting "some time" after having just been through the ordeal I'm too lazy to type again. Granted, it'd probably have been "some time" with Frank if he hadn't been the one to kill PM, but he was. She needed time not only to process this event, however. We know little of Catherine's beliefs on the nature of the universe except she's a Catholic of some sort and doesn't like Frank trying/pretending to protect her and Jordan from 'the real world'. But Frank's 'real world' barging into their houses, hanging an old friend on a peg in the basement and leaving a 'sorry for barging in' kidney in their fridge is something I'm sure she's still dealing with at this point in the series.

I think she was underdeveloped in season 1. While we get glimpses of her as a professional and a person, she's mainly a mother and a wife who serves as a grounding point and touchstone. There's nothing wrong with those roles, or following only those roles. But the majority of her scenes are those supporting Frank, or at least interacting with him. We know she’s a real person; he certainly knows it. But most of the definitions we have for her are in relation to Frank . This assessment is, of course, in light of her development in s2. It was the disentanglement from Frank that allowed the writers to explore her more, but also broadened Frank and Jordan. (I’m thinking of Monster, Luminary, Siren, O/R…) We don’t always like what we get, and apparently, they didn’t always like what they wrote. But the two seasons’ Catherines really stand at odds, if not in episodic moments, than especially in overall season-long action.

I think her actions in Luminary are at the same time encouraging and discouraging. She's finally making a grand effort to understand just what the hell Frank is talking about (and granted, I probably would be rather puzzled and maybe a bit annoyed). She's got all the books laid out on the floor, comparing names and dates and whatnot, but as a viewer, I can't help but think that while she's going about it as best she knows, she's going about it the wrong way. This is further pointed out when Jordan takes one look at the pictures and can identify in a moment, "That's daddy." It's made even more ironic because Catherine is the one who sent Frank to Alaska in the first place.

Unfortunately, I don't think Catherine could've ever understood 'the gift' entirely - Frank's or Jordan's. It's an ability, maybe somewhat genetic, and Catherine doesn't have it. That doesn't mean she can't be supportive; indeed, she'd maybe be better at being supportive of someone like Frank than someone like Lara would (more on that later). But that's also one of the reasons Catherine reacts so offhandedly to Frank in season 2. I don't remember the earliest manifestations of Jordan's vision/s (besides the dreams) but I do remember one of the earliest is in the Dove/TBATE arc, when Jordan saw angels in the corner, "but now they're gone." Catherine has to come to the understanding they're inevitable. As far as we know, she's (and indeed maybe even Frank, besides his mother) had never met another person with the 'gift' - so her only reference point for the phenomenon is that her husband sees things unlike normal people, and he had a mental breakdown as a direct result of it. No parent wants anything like that for their child. And because it was during her abduction that Jordan saw angels, who were gone when Catherine returned, I could completely see someone even as normally composed and rational as Catherine (largely) is – I could see her blame herself.

I'm not all that well versed in the whole battle over when the visions started and who was the impetus (i.e. were they s1 recent or s2 life-long), but bringing Lara in as an alternative to Frank was an interesting idea. Frank, and I can't remember where, says he manipulated his vision to see evil; Lara sees something as an indication of evil. So it's not all that cheery, but it's a better 'option' for Jordan. However, we get very little Catherine and Lara interaction, and what we do have is awkward and in passing, up until Anamnesis (sp), by which point Catherine's already formed an opinion of Lara. (And not a great one.) (I always find it very telling Frank doesn’t introduce Lara to Catherine – which is understandable, but that the camera follows her and leaves the Blacks.)

I remember reading in an interview or an article that at the very beginning of season 2 someone had thrown out the idea of, if not an actual affair, a mutual Frank/Lara attraction. But they decided against it; I remember Kristen quoted as saying something like the viewers wouldn’t want it, and something like there were so many affairs on TV they wanted to be different in that they weren’t doing one. Not only that but it would fly in the face of the home and (nuclear) family as a place of sanctity, for Frank if for few others on the show (even though it happened to be breaking down at the time). I came onto this show in reruns and it was a little while before I discovered the extensive web community it has, so I’d have to admit that I’d thought about a Frank and Lara relationship. I don’t know how much I thought about it, b/c I seem to remember seeing the eps out of order. But having seen them all several times again, and thinking about it, a Frank and Lara affair doesn’t seem very viable for several reasons I won’t go into because this is about Catherine.

In short (har har) I do realize her character changed over the course of s2 in her reasoning and reactions to Frank, Jordan, family, the gift, etc. I find her criticism of Frank unnecessarily harsh (in MOCT, “I know that things are changing for us. Time's running out. Frank, I want you to be happy. But Jordan is my first priority: her safety and her well-being. And I won't let anything jeopardize that.”) as though somewhere along the line she realized/decided it may come down to a choice between the two… And while I enjoy her character development (if not necessarily her character) it definitely seems to me that M&W (&whomever) sacrificed a consistent Catherine for Frank/story/plot development whenever they wanted to. I believe a lot of her can be figured out, but it may not be easy, because she’s not the focus of the show, and it may not be pretty, because she can seem, and sometimes is, an impediment to Frank. (I don’t recall her exact reasoning, but I do remember Megan Gallagher gave her full support to the death of Catherine.) :headhurts:

-nothing, hoping this makes a bit of sense, and who happens to think the parent/offspring relationships are some of the most intriguing on the show.

believes...

this is who we are

we can't just sit back and hope for a happy ending

i couldn't swear it wasn't just an incredibly realistic simulation. not just the scenery, my whole life.

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I've largely not been a Catherine fan, but I do believe she has great qualities and adds a lot to the show (I know no one is arguing this, I'm just saying...) Her character changes with good reason over her two seasons, but it is also changed with less good reason, IMHO.

I agree that Catherine's reaction to 'being saved' from the Polaroid Man was extreme, but so were the circumstances around her needing to be rescued from PM. Yes, Frank's reaction was also extreme, as a member of the law force, and as someone, as pointed out earlier, Catherine couldn't imagine committing murder. Yes, he's been a gun-carrying law enforcement official for damn near as long as she's been alive (go find the MM timeline), and probably shot at/shot at a body or two in his career (I seem to remember him shooting in the Thin White Line flashbacks, but I could easily be mistaken). But she wasn't present at the other occasions, and Frank was acting as a cop. In TBATE, his intentions were different (obviously). He was trying to kill someone with his bare hands - not just subdue the PM or render him unconscious. It's very shocking even to watch; I can't even imagine what it'd be like, to be abducted, to think your daughter dead, and be tormented by a man who'd stalked you for years and about whom you'd never known – then have your husband, whom you’d probably been silently invoking the whole time, break in and kill the man three feet from you. There may be a bit of the whole wanting someone dead but not wanting kill the person thing going on. I think Frank sort of failed Catherine's expectations of him – not that I can say what she wanted, but that she didn’t like what she got.

But regardless of what happened to the PM, I'd find it very difficult for anyone to question Catherine's wanting "some time" after having just been through the ordeal I'm too lazy to type again. Granted, it'd probably have been "some time" with Frank if he hadn't been the one to kill PM, but he was. She needed time not only to process this event, however. We know little of Catherine's beliefs on the nature of the universe except she's a Catholic of some sort and doesn't like Frank trying/pretending to protect her and Jordan from 'the real world'. But  Frank's 'real world' barging into their houses, hanging an old friend on a peg in the basement and leaving a 'sorry for barging in' kidney in their fridge is something I'm sure she's still dealing with at this point in the series.

I think she was underdeveloped in season 1. While we get glimpses of her as a professional and a person, she's mainly a mother and a wife who serves as a grounding point and touchstone. There's nothing wrong with those roles, or following only those roles. But the majority of her scenes are those supporting Frank, or at least interacting with him. We know she’s a real person; he certainly knows it. But most of the definitions we have for her[/F] are in relation to Frank . This assessment is, of course, in light of her development in s2. It was the disentanglement from Frank that allowed the writers to explore her more, but also broadened Frank and Jordan. (I’m thinking of Monster, Luminary, Siren, O/R…) We don’t always like what we get, and apparently, they didn’t always like what they wrote.  But the two seasons’ Catherines really stand at odds, if not in episodic moments, than especially in overall season-long action.

I think her actions in Luminary are at the same time encouraging and discouraging. She's finally making a grand effort to understand just what the hell Frank is talking about (and granted, I probably would be rather puzzled and maybe a bit annoyed). She's got all the books laid out on the floor, comparing names and dates and whatnot, but as a viewer, I can't help but think that while she's going about it as best she knows, she's going about it the wrong way. This is further pointed out when Jordan takes one look at the pictures and can identify in a moment, "That's daddy." It's made even more ironic because Catherine is the one who sent Frank to Alaska in the first place.

Unfortunately, I don't think Catherine could've ever understood 'the gift' entirely - Frank's or Jordan's. It's an ability, maybe somewhat genetic, and Catherine doesn't have it. That doesn't mean she can't be supportive; indeed, she'd maybe be better at being supportive of someone like Frank than someone like Lara would (more on that later). But that's also one of the reasons Catherine reacts so offhandedly to Frank in season 2. I don't remember the earliest manifestations of Jordan's vision/s (besides the dreams) but I do remember one of the earliest is in the Dove/TBATE arc, when Jordan saw angels in the corner, "but now they're gone." Catherine has to come to the understanding they're inevitable. As far as we know, she's (and indeed maybe even Frank, besides his mother) had never met another person with the 'gift' - so her only reference point for the phenomenon is that her husband sees things unlike normal people, and he had a mental breakdown as a direct result of it. No parent wants anything like that for their child. And because it was during her abduction that Jordan saw angels, who were gone when Catherine returned, I could completely see someone even as normally composed and rational as Catherine (largely) is – I could see her blame herself.

I'm not all that well versed in the whole battle over when the visions started and who was the impetus (i.e. were they s1 recent or s2 life-long), but bringing Lara in as an alternative to Frank was an interesting idea. Frank, and I can't remember where, says he manipulated his vision to see evil; Lara sees something as an indication of evil. So it's not all that cheery, but it's a better 'option' for Jordan. However, we get very little Catherine and Lara interaction, and what we do have is awkward and in passing, up until Anamnesis (sp), by which point Catherine's already formed an opinion of Lara. (And not a great one.) (I always find it very telling Frank doesn’t introduce Lara to Catherine – which is understandable, but that the camera follows her and leaves the Blacks.)

I remember reading in an interview or an article that at the very beginning of season 2 someone had thrown out the idea of, if not an actual affair, a mutual Frank/Lara attraction. But they decided against it; I remember Kristen quoted as saying something like the viewers wouldn’t want it, and something like there were so many affairs on TV they wanted to be different in that they weren’t doing one. Not only that but it would fly in the face of the home and (nuclear) family as a place of sanctity, for Frank if for few others on the show (even though it happened to be breaking down at the time).  I came onto this show in reruns and it was a little while before I discovered the extensive web community it has, so I’d have to admit that I’d thought about a Frank and Lara relationship. I don’t know how much I thought about it, b/c I seem to remember seeing the eps out of order. But having seen them all several times again, and thinking about it, a Frank and Lara affair doesn’t seem very viable for several reasons I won’t go into because this is about Catherine.

In short (har har) I do realize her character changed over the course of s2 in her reasoning and reactions to Frank, Jordan, family, the gift, etc. I find her criticism of Frank unnecessarily harsh (in MOCT, “I know that things are changing for us.  Time's running out.  Frank, I want you to be happy.  But Jordan is my first priority: her safety and her well-being.  And I won't let anything jeopardize that.”) as though somewhere along the line she realized/decided it may come down to a choice between the two… And while I enjoy her character development (if not necessarily her character) it definitely seems to me that M&W (&whomever) sacrificed a consistent Catherine for Frank/story/plot development whenever they wanted to. I believe a lot of her can be figured out, but it may not be easy, because she’s not the focus of the show, and it may not be pretty, because she can seem, and sometimes is, an impediment to Frank.  (I don’t recall her exact reasoning, but I do remember Megan Gallagher gave her full support to the death of Catherine.) :headhurts:

-nothing, hoping this makes a bit of sense, and who happens to think the parent/offspring relationships are some of the most intriguing on the show.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

eleoquently put...my contention is that Catherine was so busy looking for the trees she missed the forest...like Peter says in MOCT:

Possible futures exist, like branches

on a tree. Most of us only see the

path we're on, but some people -- the

gifted ones -- see those branches.

I agree completely with you. She did make a half-assed attempt in Luminary, but in her conversation with Peter at his house, it was obvious something she did not understand nor really desired to fully know...she became defensive with her reaction of "so its my fault". The kicker being that she must have been studying those books for hours, then Jordan walks up and points to one picture and says "That's Daddy". AND THEN CATHERINE CHOOSES THE WRONG PICTURE, to me that sent a very strong message that no matter how much she tried, she would never understand. Don't get me wrong, her death still leaves a very emotional mark on me..I HATED to see her go. I think the story line could have been re-worked to bring them back together in a somewhat different relationship, but what i believe happened was

it came down to the 2nd season directors HAVING to figure out what to do with her character. The developing connection between Frank and Jordan became the divining rod from s2 on....anything else was expendable.

As for Catherine "wanting more time", it was apparent at that particular time that she was talking ONLY of Frank killing the PM...more light was shed in a later episode, (cant remember right now which one) where she said "We've been here a year, and we haven't exactly been racking up the Kodiak moments". At that time you could put the pieces of the puzzle together and realize that she was talking about Bletch, the Old Man, the kidney, Lucy Butler, etc...I dont think it was made clear in the "In the Beginning" episode that she was talking about the ENTIRE series of events, which obviously would lead people to think she was only referring to the killing of the PM, which some took as ungrateful.

This quote for PPTD came to mind for this discussion:

Fortuitous and timely, hmmm? Our minor

conflict of interest has been... resolved."

That's Pepper talking to Frank about Martin's death...i see a parallel in the directors dealings with Catherine's character in developing Frank/Jordan's bond in S3...

Anyway, your post was very articulate and profound. I find the dialogue to be very stimulating and thought-provoking...

An interesting question to the girlfriends/wives on this board would be..

What would your reaction be? Would you look at your husband in a different, more diminished light?

Remember, the group KNEW of this guy prior..."He's only doing what we should have done"...was this a test? If it was, it was a rotten way, putting a man's family on the line..

fourhorsemen

post-1098-1114468752_thumb.jpg

post-1098-1114469247_thumb.jpg

"And behold, a pale horse, and he who sat on it, his name was Death. Hades followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him." REV 6:8

fourthhorsemananimatedsigna3rr.gif

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