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ok, i see how this is going..gang up on The Fourth Horseman is it? Well, thats the same pig-ignorance i've come to expect from you non-creative garbage. You sit there on your lothsome, spotty behinds, squeezing blackheads, not caring a tinker's cuss for the struggling artist, you excrement!!, you whining hypocritical toadies, with you color tv sets and you Tony Jacklin golfclubs, and your bleeding masonic secret handshakes. You wouldn't let me join would ya, you blackballin b*******s!! well, i wouldn't become a Free Mason now if you got down on your lousy stinking knees, and begged me!!!!!...a little Monty Python humor for us all :clapping:

oh sorry, got a bit carried away there....i want so much to be right, but i am beginning to think that you two are right after all....all that posting for nothing. OH GOD!! The pain, the misery, scientists call this disease bromodrosis, but those of us who wear an occasional python boot know this exquisite little inconvience by the name of "STINK-FOOT"...

anyway, a little Frank Zappa at the end never hurt anyone....

Till the Last Change...Be Done...

The Fourth Horseman...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

horsemen..lol....you crack me up...:)

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  • 3 weeks later...
horsemen..lol....you crack me up...:)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shouts to Blondton13 and Ethsnafu...i was reading thru some various MillenniuM websites, those still active of course which finding one is a particularily daunting task, and i was surprised to find the following on The MillenniuM Shrine...there is a link to a MnM timeline and the discussion turns to this very question..the author does a very extensive and wonderful job putting together a timeline from start to finish, leaving out a few things, but overall a job well done..his take on this issue is quoted directly from his site..

1896

Annie Martin is born. (A Room With No View)

1911

Annie Martin is kidnapped by someone who wants to make her "ordinary". She instead strikes a deal to preserve her talents. She takes the name Lucy Butler. (A Room With No View)

i would tend to agree up to the point of Annie taking Butler's name...not sure that was ever more than rumor..i also found the following concerning the polaroid man..

1989

A Millennium Group candidate we will come to know as Polaroid Man undergoes a ceremony to become a full Millennium Group member. When he is told that every full Group member must be willing to "die for God", he goes mad. (The Beginning and the End)

was there ever an inkling that he was an actual member or at least one who was being considered? The group had information on him prior to his abduction of Catherine, so it could be possible..he did stick a pic of Catherine directly in the middle of on orobouros...so i guess its left up to ones imagination...

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Guest arcanamundi

Never did I imagine 6 or 7 years ago when I was first enthralled by this show, and this episode, that one day I'd be able to follow such probing & insightful discussions on these very stories by intelligent, passionate fans of the show. Back then it seemed to me that I was just about the only one in the world who was blown away by this show. Amazing.

It has always seemed to me that Lucy was created by the writers to be the quintessential, archetypal satanic femme fatale, all summed up in her name: Lucy - as in Lucifer - and Butler - as in Servant: The Devil's Personal Servant.

You guys rock. Rock on! :smokin:

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Never did I imagine 6 or 7 years ago when I was first enthralled by this show, and this episode, that one day I'd be able to follow such probing & insightful discussions on these very stories by intelligent, passionate fans of the show.  Back then it seemed to me that I was just about the only one in the world who was blown away by this show.  Amazing.

It has always seemed to me that Lucy was created by the writers to be the quintessential, archetypal satanic femme fatale, all summed up in her name: Lucy - as in Lucifer - and Butler - as in Servant: The Devil's Personal Servant.

You guys rock.  Rock on!  :smokin:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is still amazing to me, and shows just how complex MillenniuM was, is that one can watch an episode over and over and STILL miss key points that either answer questions from previous episodes or sets a foundation for future ones..in re-watching "The Beginning and The End", I was very reticent to believe that The Polaroid Man was once a MnM candidate, but i'll be darned if it isn't true..during his taunting of Catherine in the basement, there are two lines, very quickly spoken that i picked up on this time around...

POLAROID MAN: Would you, could you, in a house? Would you, could

you, with a mouse? Would you, could you, die for God? If I told you,

Cathy, that all that jazz you've been hearing so much about -- the

throne of God, a sea of glass, the seven veils, the seven seals, the

seven plagues, the slain lamb with seven eyes and seven thorns. Fear

God and give glory to him for the hour of his kingdom has come. And the

beast of the sea and the beast of the land cast into a lake of fire.

And then, ah, to live and reign with Christ for a thousand years of

peace and love. If I told you, Cathy, that I know that Frank will know,

it is all true, would you die, be beheaded, for your witness to the

word of -- [He throws the knife to the floor.] -- God? So that your

little daughter, your beautiful little daughter [He switches off the

basement light.] would you die for God then? [He touches her face.]

Would you, could you -- [He pushes her face to her left and shines a

flashlight onto a shape, almost completely covered by a blanket,

showing only a mop of brown curly hair. Catherine gasps in grief. The

Polaroid Man goes over and touches the hair.] Because I won't. No, they

asked me to but I won't. [Catherine is crying.] They're gonna ask Frank

and if he's willing to give his life for you, I know he's willing to

give his life for God. [He's now back in front of Catherine, shining

his flashlight in her face.] Don't you think, Cathy? But I'm not gonna

let him, okay? Because I am the end -- [He puts his hand behind her

back. She cries out again and again.] -- the question that ends here.

I am the first and I am the last, I am the alpha and I am the omega, I

am the beginning and I am the end. And soon he will come to understand

this as he works to get inside me. With me his gift his useless.

The key words in this script are

"Because I won't. No, they asked me to but i won't. (Catherine is crying). They're gonna ask Frank

and if he's willing to give his life for you, I know he's willing to give his life for God."

So in combination with the information in the MnM database even though he had no criminal record, plus this, he appears to have at one time been a candidate, my confusion is that the group obviously attempted to recruit him as an OWL (belief in biblical prophecies,etc), but he refused to accept their tenets. Yet, as you see by his quoting of Revelation here:

If i told you Cathy, that all that jazz you've been hearing so much about -- the

throne of God, a sea of glass, the seven veils, the seven seals, the

seven plagues, the slain lamb with seven eyes and seven thorns. Fear

God and give glory to him for the hour of his kingdom has come. And the

beast of the sea and the beast of the land cast into a lake of fire.

And then, ah, to live and reign with Christ for a thousand years of

peace and love. If I told you, Cathy, that I know that Frank will know,

it is all true, would you die, be beheaded, for your witness to the word of God?

that he obviously believes in the tenets of prophecy, which was the basis for the split between the owls and the more secular group, the roosters. He is a figure full of contradictions and lukewarm faith, for if he will not "die for God" then he must have been aware of Revelations 3:15-16 which say that ""I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth."

Perhaps the reason he stalked Frank for those many years with the polaroids is because he believed that Frank WOULD die for his beliefs, which in turn would serve to disgrace and dishonor PM's lack of faith..

Heck guys/gals, i dont know, i am just spouting complex theories regarding grandiose subtypes of

delusional disorder or even photographic paraphilia, blah, blah, blah.. LOL

anyway, i now have a headache.... :Gehenna_demon:

Till the Last Change....Be Done..

The (very tired and cranky) Fourth Horseman...

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Gosh, that is one heck of a post my friend (as always.) And it is a fascinating theory. I haven't given the poor polaroid man much consideration. It is clear from what you have written there is definately a Polaroid Man, Millennium group connection. It is time for me to have a revisit, bring on the mythology.....

It has always seemed to me that Lucy was created by the writers to be the quintessential, archetypal satanic femme fatale, all summed up in her name: Lucy - as in Lucifer - and Butler - as in Servant: The Devil's Personal Servant.

Arcanamundi, it is a fascinating topic isn't it. Lucy is the most enigmatic MM character without exception. I have a few, heretical ideas about her that I thought you might appreciate considering you are theologically inclined as am I. Everyone else is SO going to hate me.....

Lucy: "I'm not the person you think I am." - I actually have to agree with her there.

I have a rather unorthodox theory, I beg you all not to stone me, but I have come to the startling conclusion that Lucy Butler is not modelled from the Judeo-Christian Satan myth but from the Goddess tradition, more specifically that of the Dark Goddess. In much the same way that Lucifer means light-bearer I conclude that Lucy Butler means light-servant. I know you may consider me insane but bear with me, it is long but not unrewarding I hope.

I have to point out at this point that Dark Goddess does not refer to an evil deity, simply a deity capable of evil things. This concept may seem unusual to those of a Christian foundation but it isn't alien to Christian theology. I suppose it seems insane to elude to Lucy as an agent of light but the concept of Satan as an independent agent causing much mischief is relatively unknown to earlier Christians, it is a concept born of misunderstanding, incompatible translations and reinterpretation.

The Hebrew scriptures explicitly declare that the Almighty Himself places both the good and the evil that He created before mankind in order to provide His prime creation with free will. Deuteronomy 30:15 states, 'See, I [God] have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil. ' In Isaiah 45:7, the prophet describes God’s creation plan when he reports that, 'I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.' Job is also explicit in its depiction of Satan (meaning, simply, adversary) as subordinate to, and compliant with, the will of God. In the first chapter of Job, Satan appears with OTHER angels before God and suggests that Job’s steadfast faithfulness would not withstand personal pain and utter destitution. Satan then requests from God the chance to test Job’s virtue. The Almighty grants this request, but He meticulously outlines for Satan what he may and may not do when putting Job to the test. Satan obediently follows his Creator’s instructions.

I conclude that Lucy may serve a similar function as an agent of God, testing the sincerity of man's deeds, the strength of his convictions, and the stamina of his moral fiber. Although our so-called devil seems to entice man to do wrong, she is not, in my mind, a pointlessly evil being. Rather, she is conducting a "sting" operation; overtly enticing to bad, but in reality working for God. Remember God did some horrific things in the Bible in the name of goodness, makes Satan look like Santa Claus.

In 'A Room with no view' when Ben Gump bemoans his lack of a name Landon makes the most curious of statements, that upon their escape Lucy would provide him with a new one. I couldn't help but think how many characters in the Bible were given new names by God: some notable examples are Abram becoming Abraham, Sarai becoming Sarah, and Jacob becoming Israel. Two famous New Testament name changes occurred when Jesus named Simon-Cephas (Peter) and Saul of Tarsus became Apostle Paul. Then there is the confusion over the name Antipas who's correspondences have be misinterpreted in relation to the Lucy.

Antipas became a matyr as he epitomised the Reformation, the domination of conservatism over radical excess (think: A Room with No View). Antipas represents the opposition to the excesses of Rome ('against the pope' meaning literally 'against the pope', not against Christianity, Christ or The Right Hand Path) and the tradition of men which led to the Protestant Reformation. Note in Revelation it is said of Antipas, that he was put to death in the Satan's kingdom -- "Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death with you where the Satan sojourns" -- Satan made war upon the Antipas, and slew him - friends they were not. In Antipas one scene depicts the transfiguration of Lucy into a snake, in the depths of a maze, upon which she devours the 'divine stone' Divina Saxum. There is no need to explain the association of the serpent with wisdom but the Messiah himself will become the Holy Serpent according to the Cabala. The gematria (occult numerical value) of the word "nahash" -- "serpent" is equal to gematria of the word "mashiah", "Messiah"). there were also Gnostic sects (2-3 C.E.) of ophythes and nahasens (both words were derived from the Greek and Aramaic designations of the "serpents") who called the Christ (i.e., Messiah) the Holy Serpent who opened to the spiritualized souls the mysteries of the Tree of Life.

The maze is associated with the triple aspect of the goddess Hecate. There are also, yet again, 'Lucy and dogs' to be found amongst the plot another symbol of Hecate who, like Lucy, was accompanied by them. Largely considered a 'dark' goddess (but a goddess, not a devil all the same) she rules over cross-roads and the Underworld and is known as the Goddess of the Witches. She is dark admittedly, prone to much evil machinations but she is revered as a lofty diety, simply part of the 'loving-killing' cycle that is nature. Interestingly she is also a mother-goddess who wears the lunar disk and carries a torch, referring to her role as lightbringer ('Lucifer' means light-bearer.)

I believe there is also some symbolic link between Lucy and Lillith, the first Eve. Lilith was born of the Bible's dual accounts of the creation of the first woman, legends abounded that Adam's original mate was the demonic Lilith who had been fashioned, as was Adam, from the dust of the earth. Lilith demanded equality with Adam, the lack of ultimately causing her to abandon him upon which God dispatched three angels to negotiate her return. When these angels made threats against Lilith's descendants, she countered that she would prey eternally upon newborn human babies, who could be saved only by invoking the protection of the three angels. In the end Lilith stood her ground and never returned to her husband. Interestingly Lucy is nearly always depicted in some sexually charged environment and has a affinity to preying on children, there are recurrent themes of pregnancy, birth, children and infanticide in her stories. Renée Rosen writes of Lillith, "To me, Lilith is the goddess of female independence and autonomy, both sexually and in other aspects of life. Lilith bows down to no man or god, not even Yahweh Himself. She is also the goddess of female sexuality for pleasure itself and not merely for reproductive purposes. Unlike the average fertility goddesses, for Lilith, the sexual act is not so strongly connected with reproduction." Could easily be a Lucy biography.

I cannot remember what first set me off upon this train of thought and I know, without anyone having to tell me, that you think I am quite clearly missing the point but I am going to go back and revisit Lucy and see what got me started.

Till then,

ethsnafu

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While I find this thread fascinating, I think Frank indicated that he knew who or "what" Lucy was. It was in a police interrogation room, but I am not sure of which episode; and my CD's are loaned out right now.

My take on MLLM is it is about Frank struggling to accept that his gift is showing him the true face of evil. His glimpses show him demons, very Bible looking demons. He sometimes reads the Bible and wonders if it holds any explanation or truth about what he sees. One episode has Catherine and Frank discussing their belief/nonbelief and how they should raise Jordan. Frank is constantly tempted by Lucy/Pepper to join their side. Lucy/Pepper/the man at the top of the stairs... are all the same enity. Peppers offers Frank a compfortable life; if he will join his team. Frank is tempted and frightened by this enity, but all must wait for Frank to decide to join the dark side of his own free will. Then Frank kills the poloriod man, and the demons accuse him of being evil. Lucifer's main job is to accuse people before God.

The group is much like a church/ cult that is conditioning Frank for membership. Frank is helped by the group at first, then he begins to see that the chruch is devided and can not be trusted as the holder of truth. Frank then goes it alone.

This reminds me of the reformation? I would go on, but I don't have season three yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Come on it's obvious; Lucy is.... Luke Skywalker's father!

Wait I meant, Lucy is Lucifer.

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Guest chrisnu
Can I also give a huge salutation to chrisnu? I use his screencaps to illustrate so many points that I feel guilty I have never thanked him (I will feel terrible now if he is in fact a she) your screen capture site is an absolulte godsend!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why thank you. :) Your thanks is very much appreciated. Fascinating stuff here.

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It is a mammoth work Chrisnu and images from your screencaps are always cropping up in posts, a real invaluable MM resource. Thanks again.

"You think you know me Frank but you don't know them"

Now on to the The Polaroid Man and the musings of the mighty Fourth Horseman. I admit I have reached the same conclusion as said Horseman and the author of the MM Timeline. I am uncertain, but silly enough to state it anyway, that the Polaroid Man may sport a tattooed ouroborous around his wrist (seen as he grabs the hand of Catherine in the airport), if this is indeed wrong he certainly has one upon his wall, he knows them and they know him of that there is no question. We know that the PM (as he shall ever now be known) is known to the Group, they possess a sizeable file on him, there is the possibility that they knowingly failed to prevent his abduction of Catherine (Frank alleges as much further down the line), there is the MM Group's timely arrival at the abduction scene to which Frank enquires, 'How did you know?' of course he doesn't get an answer but it does suggest they are surveying the proceedings. There is also so much accuracy in the PM's description of the profiling process that he either shares Frank's gift or is former MM group profiler (I prefer the latter).

I also became engrossed in the 'Beginning and The End' decribed in the episodes title: Morgan and Wong spoke of how they intended Season Two to be cyclical, like the ouroborous and the orbit of the 'Space Above and Beyond' comet, that Frank would ultimately be taken on a journey for it to end where it had begun. I found some obvious correspondences between the Season's start and end, I cannot think why these had not occurred to before:

Beginning: Catherine is taken from Frank by the PM and ,ultimately, the breakdown of their marriage.

End: Catherine is taken by the Marburg virus.

Beginning: A MM Group member is gripped by a fearsome insanity, much of his rant and ramble is littered with apocalyptic themes.

End: Lara is driven insane by MM Group initiation, she becomes dangerously gripped by apocalyptic visions. Could the reason for PM's insanity be the same as Lara's? 'Dying for God?' did he know what they ultimately planned to do with regards to the Marbug Virus?

Beginning: Peter Watts recalls the tragic case of the dismembered child he had uncovered in a cooler.

End: He does precisely the same, albeit with additional visuals.

Beginning: Much is made of sacrifice and of exchange: Watts' story of his three daughters, the PM's numerous sacrificial analogies and lines and finally in Catherine's 'dear John' speech to Frank.

End: The ultimate exchange and sacrifice takes place as Lara gives her Marburg immunity to Frank and Catherine forgoes it to save Jordan.

It would seem that the beginning also became the end, a real measure of the craftsmanship of Morgan and Wong that the threads were woven from the first to the last episode. First, last, beginning, end, alpha, omega.....these concepts and the cycle of Season Two, the first episode biting the tail of the last. My God! It's full of absolute genius. I'm still thinking about the PM even now....we should have had so much more MM.

Till then,

ethsnafu

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Guest arcanamundi
So in combination with the information in the MnM database even though he had no criminal record,  plus this, he appears to have at one time been a candidate, my confusion is that the group obviously attempted to recruit him as an OWL (belief in biblical prophecies,etc), but he refused to accept their tenets. Yet, as you see by his quoting of Revelation here:

If i told you Cathy, that all that jazz you've been hearing so much about -- the

throne of God, a sea of glass, the seven veils, the seven seals, the

seven plagues, the slain lamb with seven eyes and seven thorns. Fear

God and give glory to him for the hour of his kingdom has come. And the

beast of the sea and the beast of the land cast into a lake of fire.

And then, ah, to live and reign with Christ for a thousand years of

peace and love. If I told you, Cathy, that I know that Frank will know,

it is all true, would you die, be beheaded, for your witness to the word of God?

that he obviously believes in the tenets of prophecy, which was the basis for the split between the owls and the more secular group, the roosters.

Till the Last Change....Be Done..

Wait - I think you got it backwards. Its the Owls who are the secularists, and the Roosters are the Christian millennialists. To wit:

"Roosters crow at the dawn, hoping to rouse the barnyard

but the Owl knows it is still late at night.

The foxes are about -- the Master sleeps. . .

THIS IS WHO WE ARE."

Its alright, FourthHorseman; you did say you were tired and cranky. Its all good, bro' - just wanted to set the record straight. This is who we are. :tongue::ouro:

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